3D Models
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GLBAny chances of getting a "No Postwork" gallery?
410Thread Activity
DarksealFri, Oct 31
bonjTue, Oct 28
bonjTue, Oct 28
bonjTue, Oct 28
dirtrider00Tue, Oct 14
gh0sttttMon, Oct 13
AnabranMon, Oct 13
guy91600Mon, Oct 13
For me its about seeing how far I can push it and seeing what others are able to do with the software and rendering engines they're using and maybe a chance to get to ask them how they are achieving the effects, look and or tone of their renders. Kind of like a "learning gallery" for me personally. I think it might also help others to see what's possible before running off and feeling the need to do postwork or jumping into an "AI enhancement" app or program.
Can't really speak for the "Anti-AI" crowd, but considering most of the modern day editing software has some form of AI enhancement features built into it, it would be a safe place to post and look at other peoples images and if they have questions, they can simply ask and the renderer can simply tell them how they achieved the effect in the render. Just to easy to question anything that's marked "Postworked" these days.
I should say without sounding snarky I hope, "Zero Postwork". No denoising, sharpening, softening, etc. Straight up renders. Rather have people asking how to fix those problems in the render itself.
Thanks for reading!
Can't really speak for the "Anti-AI" crowd, but considering most of the modern day editing software has some form of AI enhancement features built into it, it would be a safe place to post and look at other peoples images and if they have questions, they can simply ask and the renderer can simply tell them how they achieved the effect in the render. Just to easy to question anything that's marked "Postworked" these days.
I should say without sounding snarky I hope, "Zero Postwork". No denoising, sharpening, softening, etc. Straight up renders. Rather have people asking how to fix those problems in the render itself.
Thanks for reading!
! REPORT
Would cropping and resizing renders qualify for this?
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! REPORT
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Sun, Oct 12For me, I don't see a problem with it. I think resizing might lead to some temptation in hitting that auto sharpen, de noise buttons though. At least from my own personal experience.
Beautiful Misfits
Account Closed
Sun, Oct 12Cropping and resizing aren't changing anything with colors, depths, light and so on. So this should be save.
Imagine to render a 4000 x 4000, not every gallery would or could accept that size. So to resize would be necessary
Imagine to render a 4000 x 4000, not every gallery would or could accept that size. So to resize would be necessary
This is a proposal that I fully support and the only solution to show the possibilities of 3D.
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! REPORT
Who would be responsible for enforcement
in such a gallery??
and how would uploaders be protected from false positives.
and how would they objectively prove they did not use any postwork.
Also not everyone renders in Iray.
Some might render in Blender cycles, Unreal engine ,Mayas Arnold C4D redshift. Max Vray etc.
Are there any expert users of those programs in this community to conduct trustworthy "purity tests" for the gallery ?
I have an addon that creates in camera lens flares for Blender EEVEE
AFAIK Iray has no native DOF or Bokeh effects etc,
But there are third party products that adds certain effects to your Iray renders.
Would you ban those as well??
because if not, it become a matter who can afford the most third party tool to get better renders than the default Iray engine.
https://www.daz3d.com/atmospheric-smoke-camera
https://www.daz3d.com/epic-props-dynamic-lens-flare-starburst-for-iray
https://www.daz3d.com/motion-blur-for-iray
in such a gallery??
and how would uploaders be protected from false positives.
and how would they objectively prove they did not use any postwork.
Also not everyone renders in Iray.
Some might render in Blender cycles, Unreal engine ,Mayas Arnold C4D redshift. Max Vray etc.
Are there any expert users of those programs in this community to conduct trustworthy "purity tests" for the gallery ?
I have an addon that creates in camera lens flares for Blender EEVEE
AFAIK Iray has no native DOF or Bokeh effects etc,
But there are third party products that adds certain effects to your Iray renders.
Would you ban those as well??
because if not, it become a matter who can afford the most third party tool to get better renders than the default Iray engine.
https://www.daz3d.com/atmospheric-smoke-camera
https://www.daz3d.com/epic-props-dynamic-lens-flare-starburst-for-iray
https://www.daz3d.com/motion-blur-for-iray
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! REPORT
Beautiful Misfits
Account Closed
Sun, Oct 12We are talking "no POSTWORK" the tools you've posted are to use IN daz studio!
DustRider
Karma: 632
Sun, Oct 12Iray does have in render DOF (not a post effect), I use it on almost every render. By extension, having controllable DOF, Iray also has the ability to create Bokeh effects (I've done that as well). If you add the Iray fog effect (another Iray in render effect) with DOF you can get very good Bokeh effects.
There are other effects that Iray has, that could easily be confused with post work. For example, vignette. I do wonder however where the line for post work and AI use is to be drawn. Iray has a denoiser that operates on the "final" image, it's not an in render process, so technically it is post work. It also uses "AI" for the denoiser. While the Iray denoiser isn't the same as AI as for example, Stable Diffusion, it is still AI, and it is applied by "Iray" to the "final" image out of the render engine. I would think that this would be very similar to the "AI" that is used by many upscaling algorithms, which many here seem to have a real problem with.
I think it would be nice to be able to easily identify/sort images with post work and those without post work. But as render engines incorporate more post work features/effects into the render engine (or add the effect as a post effect to the final render), this will get more difficult to identify a "pure" rendered image. I also wonder if adding a signature to the image would be allowable, or would we have to create an object in the scene to add the sig??
There are other effects that Iray has, that could easily be confused with post work. For example, vignette. I do wonder however where the line for post work and AI use is to be drawn. Iray has a denoiser that operates on the "final" image, it's not an in render process, so technically it is post work. It also uses "AI" for the denoiser. While the Iray denoiser isn't the same as AI as for example, Stable Diffusion, it is still AI, and it is applied by "Iray" to the "final" image out of the render engine. I would think that this would be very similar to the "AI" that is used by many upscaling algorithms, which many here seem to have a real problem with.
I think it would be nice to be able to easily identify/sort images with post work and those without post work. But as render engines incorporate more post work features/effects into the render engine (or add the effect as a post effect to the final render), this will get more difficult to identify a "pure" rendered image. I also wonder if adding a signature to the image would be allowable, or would we have to create an object in the scene to add the sig??
DustRider
Karma: 632
Sun, Oct 12I should have said the denoiser isn't a completely in render process. It is applied to the image progressively as the is rendered after x number of samples. but it is applied to the image during the render, not a 100% process of the render engine.
Also, what about the AI lighting features in Octane Render, that is AI which is applied by the render process? I'm sure is we dug around enough, there would be other instances of Post effects and AI used by render engines. Even Pixar Rendeman has incorporated an AI denoiser.
Also, what about the AI lighting features in Octane Render, that is AI which is applied by the render process? I'm sure is we dug around enough, there would be other instances of Post effects and AI used by render engines. Even Pixar Rendeman has incorporated an AI denoiser.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Sun, Oct 12Well, as far as enforcement, same as any other gallery, and no, I don't think anyone should be banned for posting a render in the wrong gallery.
If you would have actually read my post, nowhere did I say Daz or Iray. I actually referenced all software and their render engines. I do specifically use Daz but I really would like to see non postworked images from the other software rendering engines. I also stated my own reasons for wanting a non postworked gallery.
For the record, I use DOF all the time in Iray, its built into the camera. Ground fog, fog and haze are also built into the engine and when those don't fit the bill, I use volumetric fog, clouds and fire. Kinda screwed with motion blur. Definitely a render that would go into the regular gallery, at least for those of us using the iray engine.
Not sure why you would think using products, regardless of what they are pre render would make a render in a no postwork gallery bannable. Having a No Postwork gallery means just that. No Postwork. Doesn't keep anyone from doing anything different from what they normally do when setting up a scene and using the products they want to. It also doesn't keep them from doing a follow up of the same render with postwork and posting it to the normal gallery.
If you would have actually read my post, nowhere did I say Daz or Iray. I actually referenced all software and their render engines. I do specifically use Daz but I really would like to see non postworked images from the other software rendering engines. I also stated my own reasons for wanting a non postworked gallery.
For the record, I use DOF all the time in Iray, its built into the camera. Ground fog, fog and haze are also built into the engine and when those don't fit the bill, I use volumetric fog, clouds and fire. Kinda screwed with motion blur. Definitely a render that would go into the regular gallery, at least for those of us using the iray engine.
Not sure why you would think using products, regardless of what they are pre render would make a render in a no postwork gallery bannable. Having a No Postwork gallery means just that. No Postwork. Doesn't keep anyone from doing anything different from what they normally do when setting up a scene and using the products they want to. It also doesn't keep them from doing a follow up of the same render with postwork and posting it to the normal gallery.
I might be bias because I do not do any post work. But yes, I'm down for this, I'd happily post only to this gallery!
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Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,249
Sun, Oct 12This, however, @dirtrider006, "No denoising, sharpening, softening," I think it would not be reasonable because all rendering engines do it. What do I mean by that? There are no half pixels in rendering. All surfaces are not one hundred percent pixel-perfectly aligned, therefore rendering engines, going as low level as DirectX or OpenGL, have to do some level of sharpening or softening (anti-aliasing / multi-sampling / filtering, subpixel blending, etc).
Moreover, light emitters do blend colors using mathematical formulas (bilinear, trilinear or Gaussian filtering) very similar to the ones used during denoising.
Denoising itself is nothing more than an algorithm to identify loose pixels that are the result of rendering artifacts, and blend them with the surrounding pixels. There is no AI involved in the process.
Moreover, light emitters do blend colors using mathematical formulas (bilinear, trilinear or Gaussian filtering) very similar to the ones used during denoising.
Denoising itself is nothing more than an algorithm to identify loose pixels that are the result of rendering artifacts, and blend them with the surrounding pixels. There is no AI involved in the process.
DustRider
Karma: 632
Sun, Oct 12According to NVidia the denoiser does use AI (Iray incorporated the RTX denoiser).
https://developer.nvidia.com/optix-denoiser
https://developer.nvidia.com/optix-denoiser
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,249
Sun, Oct 12Although, some companies are using the 'AI' buzzword, I get that, in everything, but these algorithms have existed for very long.
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,249
Sun, Oct 12Even with the OptiX Denoiser, although I am not fond of AI, this is not that type of AI. At most, it performs the same algorithm to identify rendering artifacts, which are incorrectly calculated lighting over some pixels, and all it can do is blend those pixels with the surrounding ones..
DustRider
Karma: 632
Sun, Oct 12Here is a qoute from their page linked above:
"The AI-accelerated denoiser was trained using tens of thousands of images rendered from one thousand 3D scenes. The training data was given to an auto encoder similar to the one described in the paper and run on an NVIDIA DGX-1™. The result is an AI-accelerated denoiser which is included in the OptiX SDK that works on a wide number of scenes. To further expand quality and performance."
While it certainly isn't Stable Diffusion, it does sound as if their use of "AI" is more than simple marketing hype, and that it is indeed a form of AI..
"The AI-accelerated denoiser was trained using tens of thousands of images rendered from one thousand 3D scenes. The training data was given to an auto encoder similar to the one described in the paper and run on an NVIDIA DGX-1™. The result is an AI-accelerated denoiser which is included in the OptiX SDK that works on a wide number of scenes. To further expand quality and performance."
While it certainly isn't Stable Diffusion, it does sound as if their use of "AI" is more than simple marketing hype, and that it is indeed a form of AI..
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,249
Sun, Oct 12"is more than simple marketing hype"
I wrote this under a different context (before you posted about optix), see our timestamps are identical, I hadn't read your post yet. NVDA is a different type of company that does not need the hype, they are what other's use to hype investors.
But back to the denoising issue. The main purpose is to speed up denoising by predicting instead of performing the calculations. I would still prefer the latter over an AI prediction, but if this mechanism does alter the image's original look beyond removing stray pixels, then that would be grounds for backlash. So, I do not think this does that from a PR or logical standpoint. It must do the same things that regular denoising does, but is meant for real-time applications, such as 60FPS game rendering, for example, in my opinion.
I wrote this under a different context (before you posted about optix), see our timestamps are identical, I hadn't read your post yet. NVDA is a different type of company that does not need the hype, they are what other's use to hype investors.
But back to the denoising issue. The main purpose is to speed up denoising by predicting instead of performing the calculations. I would still prefer the latter over an AI prediction, but if this mechanism does alter the image's original look beyond removing stray pixels, then that would be grounds for backlash. So, I do not think this does that from a PR or logical standpoint. It must do the same things that regular denoising does, but is meant for real-time applications, such as 60FPS game rendering, for example, in my opinion.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Sun, Oct 12No, if its part of the render engine its fine! I'm basically talking about after render postwork.
bonj
Karma: 13,257
Sun, Oct 12I think your both right here, however Luxe hit the nail on the head. They tapped into the funding pool by using the term AI. So much of it is hype and when the music stops playing there will be a few chairs missing at the party.
Same thing a few years ago with the VR hype.
Same thing a few years ago with the VR hype.
DustRider
Karma: 632
Sun, Oct 12That explains how you responded sooo fast
I'm actually with you on this. But I've also been around long enough to know that this could be an issue for render purists (and more recently, anti AI purists). I'm just thinking ahead and seeing that this could be more difficult than it might seem, and making everyone happy with the rules may be impossible.
I think for product renders there should be very little or no post work unless it is clearly noted on the image (maybe RenderHub has rules for this already?). Having an option for renders without post work in the galleries would be nice. I used to be a render "purist" and not do post work. Now I just typically adjust levels, add vignette (I prefer doing my own in Gimp vs what Iray gives us), and maybe duplicate a layer with 25-23% transparency and add a little unsharp mask to it to make details pop. Not a lot, but it does make the image look a bit better/different. I could do the same as levels when rendering, but it's more difficult since there is no histogram available in DS for your Iray renders.
I support the idea of a no post work gallery, it would be fun to see what people can do with only using the render engine.
I'm actually with you on this. But I've also been around long enough to know that this could be an issue for render purists (and more recently, anti AI purists). I'm just thinking ahead and seeing that this could be more difficult than it might seem, and making everyone happy with the rules may be impossible.
I think for product renders there should be very little or no post work unless it is clearly noted on the image (maybe RenderHub has rules for this already?). Having an option for renders without post work in the galleries would be nice. I used to be a render "purist" and not do post work. Now I just typically adjust levels, add vignette (I prefer doing my own in Gimp vs what Iray gives us), and maybe duplicate a layer with 25-23% transparency and add a little unsharp mask to it to make details pop. Not a lot, but it does make the image look a bit better/different. I could do the same as levels when rendering, but it's more difficult since there is no histogram available in DS for your Iray renders.
I support the idea of a no post work gallery, it would be fun to see what people can do with only using the render engine.
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,249
Sun, Oct 12@DustRider I'm not necessarily a render purist. But I like the DAZ results enough to not go through the process of editing the images (I also have very little time to work on my hobby as I would like, with kids and work and so on), and to just let the thing do its work. I can see how doing the post work might even be more cost effective (the GPU wastes energy rendering when you can do it manually).
Your process might even have better results than out-of-the-box IRAY because you are the real intelligence behind it
@bonj Yes, I see it a lot, just like the VR hype or the "blockchain technology" hype. I see it in my own work too, in documents mentioning AI where I know it is mostly verbiage without substance.
Your process might even have better results than out-of-the-box IRAY because you are the real intelligence behind it
@bonj Yes, I see it a lot, just like the VR hype or the "blockchain technology" hype. I see it in my own work too, in documents mentioning AI where I know it is mostly verbiage without substance.
Thanks dirtrider for starting this.
There are so many reasons for a no post production gallery.
At this moment in time game / animation engines such as unreal do not use ai for rendering or lighting but if they do in the near future this no post gallery will still be relevant . It's important to show a finished product for game dev's. Anything rendered in engine should be ready to play for the customer with no tricks or spit n polish hiding the mistakes
This issue reminds me a little of a game trailer that has a disclosure stating "not actual game play footage" .
There are so many reasons for a no post production gallery.
At this moment in time game / animation engines such as unreal do not use ai for rendering or lighting but if they do in the near future this no post gallery will still be relevant . It's important to show a finished product for game dev's. Anything rendered in engine should be ready to play for the customer with no tricks or spit n polish hiding the mistakes
This issue reminds me a little of a game trailer that has a disclosure stating "not actual game play footage" .
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! REPORT
dirtrider00
I thought I was the only one till I saw your post, then Beautiful Misfit commented saying the same so I thought why not. Worst they can say is no.
I've been amazed at what gaming engines can do these days. The outdoor environments can make Daz's look kinda bland. Sadly, I've been playing the same 4 or 5 over and over for the last couple of years it seems. I'm a big open world sandbox type guy and only thing I'm really seeing coming out in the near future is Crimson Desert.
Karma: 16,798
Sun, Oct 12 I thought I was the only one till I saw your post, then Beautiful Misfit commented saying the same so I thought why not. Worst they can say is no.I've been amazed at what gaming engines can do these days. The outdoor environments can make Daz's look kinda bland. Sadly, I've been playing the same 4 or 5 over and over for the last couple of years it seems. I'm a big open world sandbox type guy and only thing I'm really seeing coming out in the near future is Crimson Desert.
bonj
Karma: 13,257
Sun, Oct 12As my gran used to say to me.... "If you don't ask , you don't get".
I was hooked on cryengine and it still looks amazing today. Swapped recently to unreal and there's some misunderstanding of what it can do. fully open world with top nanite graphics is still a big ask unless your a suitable sized studio.
I'm doing pre production for my open world driving survival game at the moment. There are workarounds and getting the map / level design right makes it open world but with natural barriers making it difficult but not impossible to access the whole map from game start.
This will hopefully allow me to max out the graphics and effects and scale down the far away without performance loss.
It's a lot to learn again when swapping engines.
I was hooked on cryengine and it still looks amazing today. Swapped recently to unreal and there's some misunderstanding of what it can do. fully open world with top nanite graphics is still a big ask unless your a suitable sized studio.
I'm doing pre production for my open world driving survival game at the moment. There are workarounds and getting the map / level design right makes it open world but with natural barriers making it difficult but not impossible to access the whole map from game start.
This will hopefully allow me to max out the graphics and effects and scale down the far away without performance loss.
It's a lot to learn again when swapping engines.
@Anabran3
"Who would be responsible for enforcement
in such a gallery??
and how would uploaders be protected from false positives.
and how would they objectively prove they did not use any postwork."
All valid points, however like the other gallery categories it's down to the up loader and the community. There will be some hiccups i'm sure but hopefully over time people will get the idea. There are many different engines / products and situations to take into account but from my perspective showcasing a game or environment and assets needs no post or ai assistance at all. Video will be one of my output formats direct from engine.
"Also not everyone renders in Iray.
Some might render in Blender cycles, Unreal engine ,Mayas Arnold C4D redshift. Max Vray etc.
Are there any expert users of those programs in this community to conduct trustworthy "purity tests" for the gallery ?
Indeed but this is not about being purist and heavily policing and scrutinizing anything. Just a gallery that can be trusted for native renders from whatever engine used. Yes their are some experts around but no body listens to them
"I have an addon that creates in camera lens flares for Blender EEVEE. AFAIK Iray has no native DOF or Bokeh effects etc,
But there are third party products that adds certain effects to your Iray renders. Would you ban those as well?? "
I think you misunderstand the point , it's not about banning anything. It's about preserving native renders without additional post work. Strait out of the engine as you would get from any studio.
Lens flare, motion blur and fog are all rendered real time in engine, most engines do this easily. iray is a different beast but you do not need to buy lots of products as you can quite easily make your own. That's really the point of daz it's a sandbox in many ways for you to make your own things, share them if you wish.
I can see where your heading with this line of inquiry, Like an obvious bad chess move
You want me to say something like addons, plugins or scripts are fine because they are effectively in engine. So just for you if it makes you happy I will say it out loud .
Yes, and ai will be in engines too and will trickle down to effect final render. I will have little choice to use it at that point. I do not think all engines will use ai rendering due to the cost. If a script can produce an effect for final render then it is not post production.
However right now ai is not used in that way and as a producer I can choose what platform to distribute. Unreal lighting is not ai and there seems no plans to go in that direction at the moment. Blender is far more customisable in the sense of what you want to get from it. The pallet system is very different.
Cinema quality production is possible with hard work attention to detail and lots of time. No post is required as it can all be done in engine.
"Who would be responsible for enforcement
in such a gallery??
and how would uploaders be protected from false positives.
and how would they objectively prove they did not use any postwork."
All valid points, however like the other gallery categories it's down to the up loader and the community. There will be some hiccups i'm sure but hopefully over time people will get the idea. There are many different engines / products and situations to take into account but from my perspective showcasing a game or environment and assets needs no post or ai assistance at all. Video will be one of my output formats direct from engine.
"Also not everyone renders in Iray.
Some might render in Blender cycles, Unreal engine ,Mayas Arnold C4D redshift. Max Vray etc.
Are there any expert users of those programs in this community to conduct trustworthy "purity tests" for the gallery ?
Indeed but this is not about being purist and heavily policing and scrutinizing anything. Just a gallery that can be trusted for native renders from whatever engine used. Yes their are some experts around but no body listens to them
"I have an addon that creates in camera lens flares for Blender EEVEE. AFAIK Iray has no native DOF or Bokeh effects etc,
But there are third party products that adds certain effects to your Iray renders. Would you ban those as well?? "
I think you misunderstand the point , it's not about banning anything. It's about preserving native renders without additional post work. Strait out of the engine as you would get from any studio.
Lens flare, motion blur and fog are all rendered real time in engine, most engines do this easily. iray is a different beast but you do not need to buy lots of products as you can quite easily make your own. That's really the point of daz it's a sandbox in many ways for you to make your own things, share them if you wish.
I can see where your heading with this line of inquiry, Like an obvious bad chess move
You want me to say something like addons, plugins or scripts are fine because they are effectively in engine. So just for you if it makes you happy I will say it out loud .
Yes, and ai will be in engines too and will trickle down to effect final render. I will have little choice to use it at that point. I do not think all engines will use ai rendering due to the cost. If a script can produce an effect for final render then it is not post production.
However right now ai is not used in that way and as a producer I can choose what platform to distribute. Unreal lighting is not ai and there seems no plans to go in that direction at the moment. Blender is far more customisable in the sense of what you want to get from it. The pallet system is very different.
Cinema quality production is possible with hard work attention to detail and lots of time. No post is required as it can all be done in engine.
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! REPORT
Quote from original post: "considering most of the modern day editing software has some form of AI enhancement features built into it"
Soon, this isn't going to be a debate about AI tools used *just* in post-work.
"Autodesk's AI strategy for Media & Entertainment is straightforward - build practical solutions for everyone from independent artists to major studios"
"We're integrating AI into the digital content creation tools you already rely on to cut down the daily grind by automating repetitive tasks"
"the upcoming Autodesk AI Assistant showcases how natural language can be used to automate traditionally manual tasks - such as adjusting scene lighting to match the time of day"
https://adsknews.autodesk.com/news/rewriting-the-rules-of-creation/
In this proposed new gallery, should artists have to disclose whether they used any AI-assisted tools *before* rendering?
Soon, this isn't going to be a debate about AI tools used *just* in post-work.
"Autodesk's AI strategy for Media & Entertainment is straightforward - build practical solutions for everyone from independent artists to major studios"
"We're integrating AI into the digital content creation tools you already rely on to cut down the daily grind by automating repetitive tasks"
"the upcoming Autodesk AI Assistant showcases how natural language can be used to automate traditionally manual tasks - such as adjusting scene lighting to match the time of day"
https://adsknews.autodesk.com/news/rewriting-the-rules-of-creation/
In this proposed new gallery, should artists have to disclose whether they used any AI-assisted tools *before* rendering?
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! REPORT
bonj
Karma: 13,257
Mon, Oct 13This thread isn't about the use of ai. it's about post work done on finished renders or the opportunity to highlight an image taken directly out of an engine.
regarding auto desk I am aware of this and many others doing similar. If the professional workflow is to use these tools and the result is considered a native render produced then it qualifies for a pure render gallery. As complex as that seems and even though I personally don't like that idea. If it is industry standard then it is a genuine no post image.
regarding auto desk I am aware of this and many others doing similar. If the professional workflow is to use these tools and the result is considered a native render produced then it qualifies for a pure render gallery. As complex as that seems and even though I personally don't like that idea. If it is industry standard then it is a genuine no post image.
This reminds me of the debates that have circled around in the film photography community for years.
People will strive to get everything right in camera and proudly declare there are no edits, completely neglecting the fact that converting and negative to a positive image is an editing process in itself and requires a creative input from either the photographer or whoever scanned/printed the film.
Then you have to situation where someone posts an image and proclaims it unedited - how do you know it hasn't been cropped, rotated, colour graded, had contrast adjusted etc? You don't really - especially as many of those things can be done as part of the negative conversion or later to a final image. That's where accusations and finger pointing come in. You get arguments over and back and plenty of finger pointing and villification.
Ultimately it's all about the final image. Yes, it's very satisfying when you get one from the camera that's practically perfect in every way but I'll tweak and edit things if needed to get the image I wanted. I don't view renders any differently.
Does it need a whole other gallery (or two if you consider adult/non-adult content)? I don't really think so - it's the kind of thing that can (not saying it would) become and elitist circlejerk where exeryone is too busy gatekeeping and eyeing everything with suspicion to enjoy the images that are being added...
Post you images to the main gallery, show what can be done with a little work and use them as a tool to help others achieve the same if you want. Far better than hiding them away where only a select few will look for them surely?
People will strive to get everything right in camera and proudly declare there are no edits, completely neglecting the fact that converting and negative to a positive image is an editing process in itself and requires a creative input from either the photographer or whoever scanned/printed the film.
Then you have to situation where someone posts an image and proclaims it unedited - how do you know it hasn't been cropped, rotated, colour graded, had contrast adjusted etc? You don't really - especially as many of those things can be done as part of the negative conversion or later to a final image. That's where accusations and finger pointing come in. You get arguments over and back and plenty of finger pointing and villification.
Ultimately it's all about the final image. Yes, it's very satisfying when you get one from the camera that's practically perfect in every way but I'll tweak and edit things if needed to get the image I wanted. I don't view renders any differently.
Does it need a whole other gallery (or two if you consider adult/non-adult content)? I don't really think so - it's the kind of thing that can (not saying it would) become and elitist circlejerk where exeryone is too busy gatekeeping and eyeing everything with suspicion to enjoy the images that are being added...
Post you images to the main gallery, show what can be done with a little work and use them as a tool to help others achieve the same if you want. Far better than hiding them away where only a select few will look for them surely?
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dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Mon, Oct 13I actually think there are more than enough, lets say "purist" than you think so I don't see this type of gallery being empty.
As to the people that feel the need to post work their images and upload them to a "No Postwork" gallery. What's the point? Likes, views, simply being malicious? As to your other examples, The Tone Mapping tab, at least in Daz is your friend. Besides, why would you even be thinking of posting to a "No Postwork" gallery when your already thinking about all the post work you need to do to your image to make it look better? You still have the regular gallery to post to. Better yet, post the original and then do your post work thing and upload it to the regular gallery. I'd really like to see the difference. I'd also say not everyone that uses 3D software does it to make art!
As to the learning, a lot easier to learn from Non post work images in terms of learning the 3D software and what its capable of, especially for the newer users to the 3D world. Having it lumped into one gallery might make it less intimidating and easier to focus on the basics before moving on to worrying about post work and such.
Don't understand the needing 2 galleries for it. The adult/non-adult is built into Renderhubs system settings or such. Otherwise you would need two galleries, actually 4 galleries if were basing it off of settings for each of the galleries.
As to the people that feel the need to post work their images and upload them to a "No Postwork" gallery. What's the point? Likes, views, simply being malicious? As to your other examples, The Tone Mapping tab, at least in Daz is your friend. Besides, why would you even be thinking of posting to a "No Postwork" gallery when your already thinking about all the post work you need to do to your image to make it look better? You still have the regular gallery to post to. Better yet, post the original and then do your post work thing and upload it to the regular gallery. I'd really like to see the difference. I'd also say not everyone that uses 3D software does it to make art!
As to the learning, a lot easier to learn from Non post work images in terms of learning the 3D software and what its capable of, especially for the newer users to the 3D world. Having it lumped into one gallery might make it less intimidating and easier to focus on the basics before moving on to worrying about post work and such.
Don't understand the needing 2 galleries for it. The adult/non-adult is built into Renderhubs system settings or such. Otherwise you would need two galleries, actually 4 galleries if were basing it off of settings for each of the galleries.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Mon, Oct 13Sorry, meant to say 4 galleries for each main gallery based off of Renderhubs settings.
"Then you have to situation where someone posts an image and proclaims it unedited - how do you know it hasn't been cropped, rotated, colour graded, had contrast adjusted etc? You don't really - especially as many of those things can be done as part of the negative conversion or later to a final image. That's where accusations and finger pointing come in. You get arguments over and back and plenty of finger pointing and vilification."
Yes it could very likely quickly devolve into an anti post work
witch hunt
Yes it could very likely quickly devolve into an anti post work
witch hunt
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This is not about being exclusive or restricting anyone. Simply asking for a real gallery without post work on a site calling itself renderhub should be a no brainier.
People here want to see renders . it's not a Photoshop site is it? no it's for renders. What is so difficult to understand.
We're not asking for a special gallery, just a category to view native renders direct from your 3d project.
no need for more fighting and arguing about this, if you don't like the idea because you use lots of post on every image then post your opinion. Stop attacking other site members because your to stupid to have a grown up discussion.
I'm getting sick of logging in here only to have more conflict. Never in my life have I had so much hassle from any online community. No wonder more professionals don't come here.
People here want to see renders . it's not a Photoshop site is it? no it's for renders. What is so difficult to understand.
We're not asking for a special gallery, just a category to view native renders direct from your 3d project.
no need for more fighting and arguing about this, if you don't like the idea because you use lots of post on every image then post your opinion. Stop attacking other site members because your to stupid to have a grown up discussion.
I'm getting sick of logging in here only to have more conflict. Never in my life have I had so much hassle from any online community. No wonder more professionals don't come here.
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dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Mon, Oct 13I don't really understand the push back and reasoning behind the few who seem to be against this. Zero reason for someone that does postwork to want to post in a No Postwork gallery, outside of being purposely malicious. Have I missed some narrative somewhere along the way?
I keep seeing this scene from Starship Troopers when the psychic says "Its Afraid" but of what?
Personally, I'd really like to see some raw renders then see the finished product in the regular gallery. Think it could actually inspire some!
I keep seeing this scene from Starship Troopers when the psychic says "Its Afraid" but of what?
Personally, I'd really like to see some raw renders then see the finished product in the regular gallery. Think it could actually inspire some!
bonj
Karma: 13,257
Mon, Oct 13The only reason we suggest things is to make the site even better for all. Surly this benefits everyone.
I love doing post work, Photoshop was the thing that got me into pc's originally. You should see my brush collection that disappear's of the edge of the screen XD I need to delete some to make space for the new.
That said it's important to get it right in engine and I'm up for sharing what I can to help others learn in a warm and welcoming community.
From now on I will post a native render alongside the final image if I do any post.
I love doing post work, Photoshop was the thing that got me into pc's originally. You should see my brush collection that disappear's of the edge of the screen XD I need to delete some to make space for the new.
That said it's important to get it right in engine and I'm up for sharing what I can to help others learn in a warm and welcoming community.
From now on I will post a native render alongside the final image if I do any post.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Mon, Oct 13Haha, my actual artistic ability runs in the negatives numbers if I was grading myself! Can't even make good stick figure drawings. I also lack the vision is the best way to describe it in terms of art so to say. I dabble in paintshop which basically means I'll do a bad job of trying to edit a name on the side of an aircraft texture or similar for a scene I'm making.
So basically, outside of setup, I'm about 99% reliant on Iray to get the scenes look I'm going for. Being alittle selfish, but I'm actually hoping I can learn some new styles, pick some brains and such to improve my renders if RH approves the gallery.
Still really like to see some pre and post worked images.
I also lack the vision is the best way to describe it in terms of art so to say. I dabble in paintshop which basically means I'll do a bad job of trying to edit a name on the side of an aircraft texture or similar for a scene I'm making.So basically, outside of setup, I'm about 99% reliant on Iray to get the scenes look I'm going for. Being alittle selfish, but I'm actually hoping I can learn some new styles, pick some brains and such to improve my renders if RH approves the gallery.
Still really like to see some pre and post worked images.
Eh. Speaking only for myself, 3D images are just one medium for getting what's in my head out of my head. I would never handcuff myself into that being the only tool in the toolbox.
Meaning, a render is a start, but I'm seldom satisfied with it being a finished piece. Even if the render is clean with no fireflies, no sneaky pokethrough, and no janky geometry to paint over, I still want total control over the contrast, color balance, texture, and overall feel of my finished work.
Not always but often, I'll drop a subtle touch of noise or even film grain into my images to emulate the look of film or paper. Maybe I want to give a silhouette a nudge to create the effect I want. Maybe there's a glowy kind of magic or lighting effect there's simply not a 3D tool I have access to that does what I want. For example, I don't need lightning props, even if they're "good"; I'm going to paint my own anyway because 1) lightning is an inherently fun thing to draw or paint, and 2) I want full control over every little jaggy stroke, the negative space it forms in the rest of my image.
Maybe I want to draw emphasis to something hidden in some shadows, and it's simply easier to "paint" some cheaty light in the sweet spot than to blow 45 minutes trying to fiddle with the lights in virtual 3D space.
I guess I just care more about the end result than patting myself on the back for how good I am and playing with one particular set of tools. Just like I care more about control of every aspect of my finished work - and the process of its creation - than trying to speedrun everything and "not get left behind", as the AI accelerationists say.
A "No Postwork" forum won't do me any harm, I suppose. I just won't have much interest, because I'm playing a different game.
Meaning, a render is a start, but I'm seldom satisfied with it being a finished piece. Even if the render is clean with no fireflies, no sneaky pokethrough, and no janky geometry to paint over, I still want total control over the contrast, color balance, texture, and overall feel of my finished work.
Not always but often, I'll drop a subtle touch of noise or even film grain into my images to emulate the look of film or paper. Maybe I want to give a silhouette a nudge to create the effect I want. Maybe there's a glowy kind of magic or lighting effect there's simply not a 3D tool I have access to that does what I want. For example, I don't need lightning props, even if they're "good"; I'm going to paint my own anyway because 1) lightning is an inherently fun thing to draw or paint, and 2) I want full control over every little jaggy stroke, the negative space it forms in the rest of my image.
Maybe I want to draw emphasis to something hidden in some shadows, and it's simply easier to "paint" some cheaty light in the sweet spot than to blow 45 minutes trying to fiddle with the lights in virtual 3D space.
I guess I just care more about the end result than patting myself on the back for how good I am and playing with one particular set of tools. Just like I care more about control of every aspect of my finished work - and the process of its creation - than trying to speedrun everything and "not get left behind", as the AI accelerationists say.
A "No Postwork" forum won't do me any harm, I suppose. I just won't have much interest, because I'm playing a different game.
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bonj
Karma: 13,257
Tue, Oct 28Thanks for the balanced feedback. About half of my work is raw render and the other half is very post work based so I understand your point of view.
When it comes to post-work, does it apply to images that look like they could very well be illustrations? I will admit for advertising it is best to have no post-work images, but still I might want to lighten it with screen layer or use color balance. Does it also count as post-work? So, just small. Light touch ups.
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dirtrider00
Karma: 16,798
Mon, Oct 13Personally I'd say thats still post work. I honestly started this thread because while I've been kinda wanting one for awhile, others posted interest in it also. I do get it though. But if you started allowing alittle bit here and some there, you'd end up with a duplicate of a gallery we already have.
guy91600
Karma: 13,753
Mon, Oct 13The solution may have been suggested in this thread:
Include the rendering without post-production from the 3D tool (Daz Studio, Blender, and others) and the image retouched by post-production, specifying which is the original rendering and which is retouched, specifying in the comment the tool used, for example, Photoshop with AI, Photoshop old version without AI, GIMP, etc.)
Include the rendering without post-production from the 3D tool (Daz Studio, Blender, and others) and the image retouched by post-production, specifying which is the original rendering and which is retouched, specifying in the comment the tool used, for example, Photoshop with AI, Photoshop old version without AI, GIMP, etc.)
bonj
Karma: 13,257
Tue, Oct 28In all honesty I see no problems with cropping, scaling and subtle light adjustments as these are standard for distribution. If your printing your renders then conversion to cmyk can effect the lighting so adjustments need to be made. It is difficult knowing where the line is but I still think it's a valid thing to be able to post raw renders and in game screen shots.
Quote:The solution may have been suggested in this thread:
Include the rendering without post-production from the 3D tool (Daz Studio, Blender, and others) and the image retouched by post-production, specifying which is the original rendering and which is retouched, specifying in the comment the tool used, for example, Photoshop with AI, Photoshop old version without AI, GIMP, etc.)
I am not against the idea as I have little use for the galleries beyond any contest postings requiring its use.
Still I estimate a less than 20 percent chance of the Renderhub Admins creating a "no post work" Gallery section.
so yeah,.. each individual can state which renders of theirs has no external post work and be done with it.
Include the rendering without post-production from the 3D tool (Daz Studio, Blender, and others) and the image retouched by post-production, specifying which is the original rendering and which is retouched, specifying in the comment the tool used, for example, Photoshop with AI, Photoshop old version without AI, GIMP, etc.)
I am not against the idea as I have little use for the galleries beyond any contest postings requiring its use.
Still I estimate a less than 20 percent chance of the Renderhub Admins creating a "no post work" Gallery section.
so yeah,.. each individual can state which renders of theirs has no external post work and be done with it.
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Sounds too... Boring. Maybe that's just me, I dunno, maybe it'd be good for others. I really want an animation gallery. I suck at animation but I do wanna see others share their 3D videos and whatnot. Unless that's already here, then what'd I even share these thoughts for, right?
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I think some people are getting the wrong idea about the intent of having a gallery like this.
For one, its not about curbing anyone's artistic process. If its not your thing, thats fine. Do your thing and post to the regular gallery.
However, I'm not an artist, I suck at postwork, I just don't have the "eye" to see it. Basically, I have to rely on the the 3d's software and render engine to achieve the image that I'm wanting to do. I'm actually hoping I can learn so I can make my renders look better. My goal is to get as close to real as possible with out it looking real, if that makes sense.
So, what would I like to see out of a "No PostWork" Gallery or maybe we should call it a "3D 101" Gallery?
1. No postwork, plain and simple outside of possibly cropping and resizing simply because of internet plans, and such.
2. Everything goes upto hitting the final render button. If its a plugin, script, lighting, cameras, texture editing or anything else and/or is built into the software is fine by me. I personally use Daz and can't think of anything that wouldn't be acceptable but others can chime in about the other softwares or plugins I'm not familiar with.
That's it.
For the "what if" crowd, there's zero reason to postwork images to this gallery. There's no one saying this has to be a one and done gallery. If you want, post the unedited version in the "No Post" gallery and then do your thing and post the edited one to the regular gallery.
For one, its not about curbing anyone's artistic process. If its not your thing, thats fine. Do your thing and post to the regular gallery.
However, I'm not an artist, I suck at postwork, I just don't have the "eye" to see it. Basically, I have to rely on the the 3d's software and render engine to achieve the image that I'm wanting to do. I'm actually hoping I can learn so I can make my renders look better. My goal is to get as close to real as possible with out it looking real, if that makes sense.
So, what would I like to see out of a "No PostWork" Gallery or maybe we should call it a "3D 101" Gallery?
1. No postwork, plain and simple outside of possibly cropping and resizing simply because of internet plans, and such.
2. Everything goes upto hitting the final render button. If its a plugin, script, lighting, cameras, texture editing or anything else and/or is built into the software is fine by me. I personally use Daz and can't think of anything that wouldn't be acceptable but others can chime in about the other softwares or plugins I'm not familiar with.
That's it.
For the "what if" crowd, there's zero reason to postwork images to this gallery. There's no one saying this has to be a one and done gallery. If you want, post the unedited version in the "No Post" gallery and then do your thing and post the edited one to the regular gallery.
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bonj
Karma: 13,257
Tue, Oct 28Yes I agree, It's just a tag for raw renders. I'm sure game dev's would welcome this .
Just a tag to show unedited renders of 3d products.
Just a tag to show unedited renders of 3d products.
