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GLBQuestion to all "DAZ character with skin vendors" (CLOSED)
229
I really would like to here YOUR opinions - on the first view my question sounds easy but I think its not:
Imagine as following: You create a new character with skin and all these things. You invest tons of hours creating skin, packing it for daz. Now you sell this character and you earn a nice render on you product page. Till here it sound good. BUT - the buyer made changes to your "tons of hour model". New skin different what ever... Short - the character looks not like you created it.
Now comes my question:
Are you upset or maybe angry or maybe happy with this? Or do you say its ok - the user can do what ever they like? What is YOUR opinion about it?
Please let me know in the comments below. Thank you very much!
###advice to the mods of this forum### This thread should not become a discussion between seller and buyer - in this thread i would like to here the words from the vendors only - Thank you for your understanding and support####
Imagine as following: You create a new character with skin and all these things. You invest tons of hours creating skin, packing it for daz. Now you sell this character and you earn a nice render on you product page. Till here it sound good. BUT - the buyer made changes to your "tons of hour model". New skin different what ever... Short - the character looks not like you created it.
Now comes my question:
Are you upset or maybe angry or maybe happy with this? Or do you say its ok - the user can do what ever they like? What is YOUR opinion about it?
Please let me know in the comments below. Thank you very much!
###advice to the mods of this forum### This thread should not become a discussion between seller and buyer - in this thread i would like to here the words from the vendors only - Thank you for your understanding and support####
! REPORT
I personally do not like this because not every skin can match with every character but it is part of the deal 
so it is okay to do this as long as the buyer says that he altered the character
so it is okay to do this as long as the buyer says that he altered the character ! REPORT
In my opinion, Don't worry you can play with my characters mix up skin, change morphs etc. Its a part of beautiful imagination.
Enjoy your Time
! REPORT
I think people might be missing this important part of your inquiry:
"...earn a nice render on your product page..."
For clarification...
Are you asking if vendors mind if customers submit user renders where the product is altered substantially from how it comes "as purchased"?
"...earn a nice render on your product page..."
For clarification...
Are you asking if vendors mind if customers submit user renders where the product is altered substantially from how it comes "as purchased"?
! REPORT
ipixel
Karma: 1,721
Wed, May 10, 2023Yes, you pointed it out a bit more clear. Thank you for that Foxy.
The Point is - the maybe complete different render result of the original character.
The Point is - the maybe complete different render result of the original character.
This should be read all the way through, as I have extensive experience in the subject and I do have a lot to say about it. This is also assuming that a vendor may find the subject upsetting. Some of us may in fact be upset by it, but by making the work available to the public, you have to expect others to remix your work. People have used filters and have altered my finished renders, it is to be expected from the public realm. I also used to be a part of the "tagging" community, selling art assets with my rendered characters in them. People are using them as avatars across social media. People take what they love and make them their own. That's what we do.
Technically I fit the description of a character vendor, although I only have one on Renderosity and it's a collaborative effort (I did the morph). My one 100%-developed-by-me character only sold one copy. My character morphs are available to anyone, you just have to ask me. But here's my take on the matter. I really don't care what someone does with my character, as long as they aren't re-selling the character itself, or giving it away. What we're selling is a use license, and I have never seen a use license on a DAZ or Poser character that states the user *must* use the supplied texture exclusively to any other texture. That would be pretty lame. Friends have rendered my characters using other textures, and one of them did a series featuring three of them and told a story alongside the rendered images. It thrilled me to see others tell their own stories using my characters.
If the default consensus of vendors was that users had to use their characters in renders completely unaltered, I'd have been guilty way back in 2006. I have hundreds of purchased, gifted, and free DAZ/Poser characters in my Runtime and I have mixed textures for almost two decades now. Every one of my own character morphs use textures from characters I have in my Runtime. I have modified them; I have folders that hold face skin textures with my own hand-brushed makeup, and I have several shader presets that alter skin tones. I have made my own eye textures and catch lights. I've added tattoos as requested by clients of rendered commissions. Just making new nail color options is a must-have. Imagine if I told someone I couldn't do their $50 render of a stylized likeness of them because I was not allowed to match their eye color or paint the tattoo they have on their chest.
There's nothing in the contract stating attribution. That's an argument I found myself on the wrong side of over 10 years ago over at Renderosity. There was a discussion among vendors that attribution on rendered images should be *mandatory*. I disagreed with that. Now, it's wrong to say that you took a character, changed skin texture, rendered it, then said the character is 100% your creation. Then you could have a bone to pick with that artist. So if you're thinking that there should be some sort of mandatory attribution, you're gonna hear from me loud and clear how I feel about that. You can make it an option, it's a great way to showcase your "product". If an artist used your character but used another texture, that artist can provide attribution as appropriate. But honestly, most of us have figured out that attribution can open a can of worms. I used to furnish attribution to every single asset I used in a render; some still do. But it is not worth the time and effort. It's better to say nothing, unless you really like something you've used and want others to know about it. That's what over 99% of us do anyway.
I've dealt with vendors and artists going on virtual witch hunts across social media regarding proper attribution, linking media posts and resharing images. Please please please don't ever consider that route. It will earn you a very bad reputation. And if you're on the other side, where you see vendors harassing others due to these issues, say something about it. I was driven out of Renderosity's secret vendor forum (it was offsite) but it was well worth it. Someone even threatened libel if I continued speaking my mind about it. I blocked her and she's no longer a vendor. Either she shut her Renderosity store down, or it was shut down by Renderosity.
My two Schekels.
Technically I fit the description of a character vendor, although I only have one on Renderosity and it's a collaborative effort (I did the morph). My one 100%-developed-by-me character only sold one copy. My character morphs are available to anyone, you just have to ask me. But here's my take on the matter. I really don't care what someone does with my character, as long as they aren't re-selling the character itself, or giving it away. What we're selling is a use license, and I have never seen a use license on a DAZ or Poser character that states the user *must* use the supplied texture exclusively to any other texture. That would be pretty lame. Friends have rendered my characters using other textures, and one of them did a series featuring three of them and told a story alongside the rendered images. It thrilled me to see others tell their own stories using my characters.
If the default consensus of vendors was that users had to use their characters in renders completely unaltered, I'd have been guilty way back in 2006. I have hundreds of purchased, gifted, and free DAZ/Poser characters in my Runtime and I have mixed textures for almost two decades now. Every one of my own character morphs use textures from characters I have in my Runtime. I have modified them; I have folders that hold face skin textures with my own hand-brushed makeup, and I have several shader presets that alter skin tones. I have made my own eye textures and catch lights. I've added tattoos as requested by clients of rendered commissions. Just making new nail color options is a must-have. Imagine if I told someone I couldn't do their $50 render of a stylized likeness of them because I was not allowed to match their eye color or paint the tattoo they have on their chest.
There's nothing in the contract stating attribution. That's an argument I found myself on the wrong side of over 10 years ago over at Renderosity. There was a discussion among vendors that attribution on rendered images should be *mandatory*. I disagreed with that. Now, it's wrong to say that you took a character, changed skin texture, rendered it, then said the character is 100% your creation. Then you could have a bone to pick with that artist. So if you're thinking that there should be some sort of mandatory attribution, you're gonna hear from me loud and clear how I feel about that. You can make it an option, it's a great way to showcase your "product". If an artist used your character but used another texture, that artist can provide attribution as appropriate. But honestly, most of us have figured out that attribution can open a can of worms. I used to furnish attribution to every single asset I used in a render; some still do. But it is not worth the time and effort. It's better to say nothing, unless you really like something you've used and want others to know about it. That's what over 99% of us do anyway.
I've dealt with vendors and artists going on virtual witch hunts across social media regarding proper attribution, linking media posts and resharing images. Please please please don't ever consider that route. It will earn you a very bad reputation. And if you're on the other side, where you see vendors harassing others due to these issues, say something about it. I was driven out of Renderosity's secret vendor forum (it was offsite) but it was well worth it. Someone even threatened libel if I continued speaking my mind about it. I blocked her and she's no longer a vendor. Either she shut her Renderosity store down, or it was shut down by Renderosity.
My two Schekels.
! REPORT
ipixel
Karma: 1,721
Thu, May 11, 2023wow - thank you a lot for you newspaper long statement. Fascinating to read. But - may i ask you for a 1 sensence long conclusion? it would be very kind - thank you a lot!
To make it more clear i will give you all an example for the point of this discussion:
A few days ago i made a little review of a DAZ character. I played around with it and found out for myself that i liked a different skin. I made the render (attention!) and i asked the vendor before i made the upload: "Do you think its unfair to show her (the character) with a different skin on your product page?" The vendor answered: "It's not "unfair" at all to do whatever you want with the products. But if you're asking whether that should be submitted as a *user render* on the product page, I would say no. It's best if user renders represent the product "as purchased" so it doesn't confuse potential customers."
This is a clear and easy to understanding statement from this vendor. I changed the skin back to default and made a new render. It was 100% ok for me. Both are happy! Thats it end of story. So mabye its just a question of kindness to ask the vendor?
To make it more clear i will give you all an example for the point of this discussion:
A few days ago i made a little review of a DAZ character. I played around with it and found out for myself that i liked a different skin. I made the render (attention!) and i asked the vendor before i made the upload: "Do you think its unfair to show her (the character) with a different skin on your product page?" The vendor answered: "It's not "unfair" at all to do whatever you want with the products. But if you're asking whether that should be submitted as a *user render* on the product page, I would say no. It's best if user renders represent the product "as purchased" so it doesn't confuse potential customers."
This is a clear and easy to understanding statement from this vendor. I changed the skin back to default and made a new render. It was 100% ok for me. Both are happy! Thats it end of story. So mabye its just a question of kindness to ask the vendor?
I also spend a lot of time to make the texture fits to the character. Spend a lot of time for Renders and I really think, that the texture make the character.
At last, it is up to the user, what he likes to see. So I am not bother what they doe. Only one think makes me upset, oversizing of the body.
Makeup, Hair and Dress can make a complete new look.
Let them play to there pleasure and I hope they have fun........
At last, it is up to the user, what he likes to see. So I am not bother what they doe. Only one think makes me upset, oversizing of the body.
Makeup, Hair and Dress can make a complete new look.
Let them play to there pleasure and I hope they have fun........
! REPORT
ipixel
Karma: 1,721
Fri, May 12, 2023Vielen Dank Hannes fuer Deine Meinung und deinen Kommentar!
Thank You Hannes for your opinion and comment!
Thank You Hannes for your opinion and comment!
Hannes W
Karma: 39,476
Fri, May 12, 2023es ist eben nur ein modernes Hobby. Jeder macht es wie er will. Manche nutzen es eben als Selfmade-Porno, die Mehrheit denke ich aber
macht sich schoene Figuren. Was ich nur daran so hasse, ist die Moeglichkeit Kinder-und Jugendpornos zu erstellen.
Das ist auch der Grund, warum ich keine Kids und auch Teens mehr mache. Meine Teens waren zwar aelter, jedoch erstelle ich keine weiteren.
Anscheinend ist die Mehrheit maennlich, ersichtlich aus der ueberwiegenden Anzahl weiblicher Figuren. Sex sells, wie man an der Kleidung
in allen Foren erkennen kann. Dieser Trend besteht aber schon von Anfang an. Wir koennen die Welt nicht aendern, einzig versuchen durch
unsere Arbeit etwas huebscher zu gestalten.
Schon 2006, als das Spiel: Singles in Deutschland erschien, habe ich angefangen zu Modden. Als Hauptdownloads gingen auch damals
die schluepferigen Extensionen durch. Ich habe nur das erstellt, was ich mit mir selber vereinbaren konnte und nich was ich wirklich machen
konnte. Trotz vieler Anfragen kam es einfach fuer mich nicht infrage. Ebenso verfahre ich hier. Mann muss nicht alles machen was moeglich waere, nur um spezielle Beduerfnisse zu erfuellen. Gehe deinen eigenen Weg ohne Ruecksicht auf die Meinung Andere.
Ein Spruch aus meiner Jugendzeit:
Lass sie vor Wut die Kommode zertruemmern, garnich um kuemmern
In dem Sinne, mach weiter wie gehabt.
PS: schei.... Umlaute hier im Forum
macht sich schoene Figuren. Was ich nur daran so hasse, ist die Moeglichkeit Kinder-und Jugendpornos zu erstellen.
Das ist auch der Grund, warum ich keine Kids und auch Teens mehr mache. Meine Teens waren zwar aelter, jedoch erstelle ich keine weiteren.
Anscheinend ist die Mehrheit maennlich, ersichtlich aus der ueberwiegenden Anzahl weiblicher Figuren. Sex sells, wie man an der Kleidung
in allen Foren erkennen kann. Dieser Trend besteht aber schon von Anfang an. Wir koennen die Welt nicht aendern, einzig versuchen durch
unsere Arbeit etwas huebscher zu gestalten.
Schon 2006, als das Spiel: Singles in Deutschland erschien, habe ich angefangen zu Modden. Als Hauptdownloads gingen auch damals
die schluepferigen Extensionen durch. Ich habe nur das erstellt, was ich mit mir selber vereinbaren konnte und nich was ich wirklich machen
konnte. Trotz vieler Anfragen kam es einfach fuer mich nicht infrage. Ebenso verfahre ich hier. Mann muss nicht alles machen was moeglich waere, nur um spezielle Beduerfnisse zu erfuellen. Gehe deinen eigenen Weg ohne Ruecksicht auf die Meinung Andere.
Ein Spruch aus meiner Jugendzeit:
Lass sie vor Wut die Kommode zertruemmern, garnich um kuemmern
In dem Sinne, mach weiter wie gehabt.
PS: schei.... Umlaute hier im Forum
ipixel
Karma: 1,721
Fri, May 12, 2023Moin Hannes, vielen Dank nochmals fuer Deine weisen und offenen Worte. Dein letzter Beitrag ist zwar ein wenig "off topic", aber ich nehme deinen Rat ernst und freue mich ueber deinen lobenden Worte. Bezueglich deiner Veraergerung ueber die Umlaute kann ich dir nur Zustimmen, es ist zwar laestig aber kein Weltuntergang. Ich werde den Forum Support ueber das Problem informieren. Moeglicherweise ist es nur eine Einstellungssache und schnell erledigt. Ich informiere dich sobald ich eine Nachricht erhalten habe. Vielen Dank nochmal fuer deinen Beitrag. Lass dich nicht aergern - weiter so!
Hi Hannes, thank you again for your wise and open words. Your last post is a bit "off topic", but I take your advice seriously and appreciate your words of praise. Regarding your annoyance about the umlauts, I can only agree with you, it's annoying but not the end of the world. I will inform the forum support about this problem. Possibly it's just a matter of settings and can be fixed quickly. I will inform you as soon i get an answer from the support. Many thanks again for your comment Don't worry - keep it going!
Hi Hannes, thank you again for your wise and open words. Your last post is a bit "off topic", but I take your advice seriously and appreciate your words of praise. Regarding your annoyance about the umlauts, I can only agree with you, it's annoying but not the end of the world. I will inform the forum support about this problem. Possibly it's just a matter of settings and can be fixed quickly. I will inform you as soon i get an answer from the support. Many thanks again for your comment Don't worry - keep it going!
