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GLBImagination, wish lists and the long wait (CLOSED)
192
Hi, it's me - Pushee-Ri 
But since it's partly about NSFW (and one of my favorite topics there), I'm using my darker account.
This is not really a tutorial. However, I am publishing it here because it could be a kind of Infotorial - at least for those interested. So, let's get started ...
What is it about?
I often come across ideas and wishes on wishlists that are understandable (at least in gray theory), but with a little background knowledge also seem very, very (!) strange. Be it hats that go with every hairstyle (without poke throughs, of course), hair that should be shorn off like in a prison (in several steps, of course) or - the classic - clothes that should be able to be taken off slowly and in many steps and all poses (aka striptease - yeah).
THE HAT
After seeing about 5 pounds of my stupid and stupidest ideas go up in smoke and mirrors, I have adopted the following motto:
A 3D panty doesn't know what's underneath it (let that sink in).
The same applies to 3D hats.
This means that no matter how realistic a 3D hat looks, it is not real. It's not even a piece of paper with a hat printed on it ... it is nothing - or better - nothing more than a bunch of virtual dots that are virtually (i.e. also non-existent) covered with a virtual material by the app. And if you take a look at such a point, you will quickly realize: there is not enough mental mass to notice anything - neither what is above, below or to the side. The only thing such a point knows is its position in 3D space ... and that's only because it's written down for it somewhere.
So: if the dots from which the 3D hat is made do not know what is underneath ... how are they supposed to partially cover hair? If you are now thinking - But what about 3D clothing? After all, they (usually) cover the model's body perfectly - you are slightly off the mark.
3D clothing for DAZ is built around the desired base model in the base pose with which it is loaded. The model's movement apparatus is then (together with some magical ingredients such as JCMs, weight painting, etc. ) transferred to the clothing so that it follows the model's movements. But all this is not (and cannot be) done for a 3D hat ... and therefore the model's hair grows out of the hat.
So: Bye bye to 3D hats without poke throughs?
If you want to have everything without effort, without thinking, without learning anything new and just with a simple mouse click: definitely YES!
But if you are willing to think outside the box, there is the option of retouching (also known as Post Proc). It's not as difficult as it sounds, can be done with a free tool (Gimp) and with a bit of practice can be done quickly.
So - keep in mind: it is up to you alone what you make of the given. And if you wait for others to do something for you, you will gather dust as well as cobwebs.
THE PRISON HAIRDO
The creation of a good, realistic (!) and usable 3D hairstyle does not take hours or days, but weeks (especially if the producer attaches importance to details, morphs and a good object topography).
However, the desired product is not just a single object, but several, as the hair is to be removed in steps. So for the sake of simplicity, let's assume 5 steps in which a good hairstyle is to be transformed into the jail look ....
But how should it be cut? Some may like the mohawk style (starting at the sides), while others prefer the samurai style (starting from the forehead across the midline of the head). Poor producer! If he wants to satisfy both wishes, we have 11 different objects (1 regular look, 5 x Iroquois, 5 x Samurai).
So the question is not whether it would be possible ... but how much money you would be prepared to pay for the producer's work (even if you don't like the initial haircut). Less than $180.00? Then you'd better put this wish in the virtual attic (the dustiest corner you can find there).
THE STRIPTEASE (Yeah!)
There are some approaches our there - some with an ultra awful look and/or such limited uses that it's only worth buying if you otherwise love to pour money down the drain.
But why is it so damn difficult to create / find a good / realistic looking garment that adapts to all possible poses and can be taken off slowly?
Here is some basic information. Each DAZ 3D garment must not only be developed exactly for the base figure of the chosen Genesis version, but also in the base pose with which the base figure is loaded (A-Pose, T-Pose etc). And this applies not only to the 3D garment as such, but also to all morphs etc. that are added to the clothing.
If you are now asking yourself: Wouldn't it be possible to create several items of clothing at different stages of undressing? you are right on the one hand, but you will fall over the next DAZ stumbling block on the other hand .... unless, of course, you want to render all your striptease scenes in the same pose (A or T). But I imagine that's kind of boring ...
Take a tube dress, for example, which already exposes everything in the A or T pose at the top ... and lies beautifully draped on the hips. But as soon as you change the pose, the DAZ horror strikes: the great tube dress becomes something that has nothing to do with either realistic clothing or a skillful striptease (not even with narrowed eyes and a lot of imagination).
This has something to do with how DAZ transfers the model's movement apparatus to the garment (this is called rigging) - and without this rigging, the garment would not move with the model. Believe me - I know what I'm talking about: I now have seven (!!) Tube Dress versions lying around on my hard drive, which either fail due to the described behavior or due to a horrible look caused by dForce, which I call the corrugated cardboard look, because the vertical edgerings suddenly become visible when simulating (dForce).
But the DAZ horror goes even further - downwards! As soon as it comes to the legs, and not just skirts in particular, rigging (see above) leads to silly, unusable results - especially when it comes to slipped clothing such as pants or skirts that hang at knee height. With an object like this, you will never be able to change the pose and achieve a convincing result of at least 0.5%.
So: Also bye bye to Striptease, take off garment or slipable clothes?
If you belong to the DaD faction (Double-click and Done): yes (!) .... BUT
... if you are ready, willing and able to embark on an adventure, try out a few new things, experiment and perhaps look at things from a different perspective, there are definitely products out there that you can use.
Once again: There are products that support your ideas ... it's just up to you and you just have to think outside the box of DaD.
And if you're not ready for that: happy waiting!
But since it's partly about NSFW (and one of my favorite topics there), I'm using my darker account.
This is not really a tutorial. However, I am publishing it here because it could be a kind of Infotorial - at least for those interested. So, let's get started ...
What is it about?
I often come across ideas and wishes on wishlists that are understandable (at least in gray theory), but with a little background knowledge also seem very, very (!) strange. Be it hats that go with every hairstyle (without poke throughs, of course), hair that should be shorn off like in a prison (in several steps, of course) or - the classic - clothes that should be able to be taken off slowly and in many steps and all poses (aka striptease - yeah).
THE HAT
After seeing about 5 pounds of my stupid and stupidest ideas go up in smoke and mirrors, I have adopted the following motto:
A 3D panty doesn't know what's underneath it (let that sink in).
The same applies to 3D hats.
This means that no matter how realistic a 3D hat looks, it is not real. It's not even a piece of paper with a hat printed on it ... it is nothing - or better - nothing more than a bunch of virtual dots that are virtually (i.e. also non-existent) covered with a virtual material by the app. And if you take a look at such a point, you will quickly realize: there is not enough mental mass to notice anything - neither what is above, below or to the side. The only thing such a point knows is its position in 3D space ... and that's only because it's written down for it somewhere.
So: if the dots from which the 3D hat is made do not know what is underneath ... how are they supposed to partially cover hair? If you are now thinking - But what about 3D clothing? After all, they (usually) cover the model's body perfectly - you are slightly off the mark.
3D clothing for DAZ is built around the desired base model in the base pose with which it is loaded. The model's movement apparatus is then (together with some magical ingredients such as JCMs, weight painting, etc. ) transferred to the clothing so that it follows the model's movements. But all this is not (and cannot be) done for a 3D hat ... and therefore the model's hair grows out of the hat.
So: Bye bye to 3D hats without poke throughs?
If you want to have everything without effort, without thinking, without learning anything new and just with a simple mouse click: definitely YES!
But if you are willing to think outside the box, there is the option of retouching (also known as Post Proc). It's not as difficult as it sounds, can be done with a free tool (Gimp) and with a bit of practice can be done quickly.
So - keep in mind: it is up to you alone what you make of the given. And if you wait for others to do something for you, you will gather dust as well as cobwebs.
THE PRISON HAIRDO
The creation of a good, realistic (!) and usable 3D hairstyle does not take hours or days, but weeks (especially if the producer attaches importance to details, morphs and a good object topography).
However, the desired product is not just a single object, but several, as the hair is to be removed in steps. So for the sake of simplicity, let's assume 5 steps in which a good hairstyle is to be transformed into the jail look ....
But how should it be cut? Some may like the mohawk style (starting at the sides), while others prefer the samurai style (starting from the forehead across the midline of the head). Poor producer! If he wants to satisfy both wishes, we have 11 different objects (1 regular look, 5 x Iroquois, 5 x Samurai).
So the question is not whether it would be possible ... but how much money you would be prepared to pay for the producer's work (even if you don't like the initial haircut). Less than $180.00? Then you'd better put this wish in the virtual attic (the dustiest corner you can find there).
THE STRIPTEASE (Yeah!)
There are some approaches our there - some with an ultra awful look and/or such limited uses that it's only worth buying if you otherwise love to pour money down the drain.
But why is it so damn difficult to create / find a good / realistic looking garment that adapts to all possible poses and can be taken off slowly?
Here is some basic information. Each DAZ 3D garment must not only be developed exactly for the base figure of the chosen Genesis version, but also in the base pose with which the base figure is loaded (A-Pose, T-Pose etc). And this applies not only to the 3D garment as such, but also to all morphs etc. that are added to the clothing.
If you are now asking yourself: Wouldn't it be possible to create several items of clothing at different stages of undressing? you are right on the one hand, but you will fall over the next DAZ stumbling block on the other hand .... unless, of course, you want to render all your striptease scenes in the same pose (A or T). But I imagine that's kind of boring ...
Take a tube dress, for example, which already exposes everything in the A or T pose at the top ... and lies beautifully draped on the hips. But as soon as you change the pose, the DAZ horror strikes: the great tube dress becomes something that has nothing to do with either realistic clothing or a skillful striptease (not even with narrowed eyes and a lot of imagination).
This has something to do with how DAZ transfers the model's movement apparatus to the garment (this is called rigging) - and without this rigging, the garment would not move with the model. Believe me - I know what I'm talking about: I now have seven (!!) Tube Dress versions lying around on my hard drive, which either fail due to the described behavior or due to a horrible look caused by dForce, which I call the corrugated cardboard look, because the vertical edgerings suddenly become visible when simulating (dForce).
But the DAZ horror goes even further - downwards! As soon as it comes to the legs, and not just skirts in particular, rigging (see above) leads to silly, unusable results - especially when it comes to slipped clothing such as pants or skirts that hang at knee height. With an object like this, you will never be able to change the pose and achieve a convincing result of at least 0.5%.
So: Also bye bye to Striptease, take off garment or slipable clothes?
If you belong to the DaD faction (Double-click and Done): yes (!) .... BUT
... if you are ready, willing and able to embark on an adventure, try out a few new things, experiment and perhaps look at things from a different perspective, there are definitely products out there that you can use.
Once again: There are products that support your ideas ... it's just up to you and you just have to think outside the box of DaD.
And if you're not ready for that: happy waiting!
! REPORT
Thanks for the clarification, I understand better why my attempts at slippery clothing are doomed to failure.
I put some of this type of clothing on sale, but it is true that in some Genesis poses the result is at least surprising and has nothing to do with what the user expects.
I limited the disaster by making the clothing independently for each step of the striptease.
This is also why I provided the poses for removing shoes.
On the other hand, I was asked to do the sock removal and after several attempts I gave up, it is very time-consuming and the result in Daz was very disappointing and unsaleable.
I put some of this type of clothing on sale, but it is true that in some Genesis poses the result is at least surprising and has nothing to do with what the user expects.
I limited the disaster by making the clothing independently for each step of the striptease.
This is also why I provided the poses for removing shoes.
On the other hand, I was asked to do the sock removal and after several attempts I gave up, it is very time-consuming and the result in Daz was very disappointing and unsaleable.
! REPORT
PasahRi
Karma: 4,710
Tue, Jul 30, 2024Thank you very much for your interest - I was very pleased
It took me about 3 years, stumbling into every trap DAZ has to offer and filling hard disks with non-functioning DAZ content, until I finally finished my first commercial product.
In other words, every mistake we make can be seen as an opportunity to take a step back, look at the mistake / rethink and try again with a different approach. So nothing is really doomed - it's just an incentive to do better
Maybe I'll do a proper tutorial on slipable clothes (this one is aimed more at users who want everything but aren't prepared to bend their finger more than once)
I'll be posting a few picture examples soon. You might find one or two that interest you and that you would like to know more about. Just send me a PM.
It took me about 3 years, stumbling into every trap DAZ has to offer and filling hard disks with non-functioning DAZ content, until I finally finished my first commercial product.
In other words, every mistake we make can be seen as an opportunity to take a step back, look at the mistake / rethink and try again with a different approach. So nothing is really doomed - it's just an incentive to do better
Maybe I'll do a proper tutorial on slipable clothes (this one is aimed more at users who want everything but aren't prepared to bend their finger more than once)
I'll be posting a few picture examples soon. You might find one or two that interest you and that you would like to know more about. Just send me a PM.
I sat down and looked for a few of my things that illustrate the above (especially the striptease section).
As I wrote: there are definitely products out there (and not just from me) that can be used to do cool things ...
... you just have to be willing to explore something new and not try to do everything with a single mouse click.
All images and promos show objects that are suitable for slipping/take off
Family-friendly (Pushee-Ri):
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/37100/le-parcour
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/34159/fun-with-a-bandeau-top
Commercial: https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/dmc-slipping-t-shirt-2-for-g8f
Commercial: https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/dmc-bandeau-top-for-gf8-and-gf8-1
Freebie: https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/psr-test-skirt-for-gf8
NSFW (PasahRi):
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49099/pimp
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49098/-your
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49097/-brain
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49012/the-beebee
As I wrote: there are definitely products out there (and not just from me) that can be used to do cool things ...
... you just have to be willing to explore something new and not try to do everything with a single mouse click.
All images and promos show objects that are suitable for slipping/take off
Family-friendly (Pushee-Ri):
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/37100/le-parcour
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/34159/fun-with-a-bandeau-top
Commercial: https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/dmc-slipping-t-shirt-2-for-g8f
Commercial: https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/dmc-bandeau-top-for-gf8-and-gf8-1
Freebie: https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/psr-test-skirt-for-gf8
NSFW (PasahRi):
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49099/pimp
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49098/-your
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49097/-brain
Image: https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/49012/the-beebee
! REPORT
The whole hat-hair-head relation is a complex one in 3D world. Some modern games are finally coming around to handling it, where previously hats would either hide hair (with or without a skullcap), feature an attached hair add-on, or cause some amount of clipping. For DAZ, hats would either be for buzzcut/bald characters where it's not an issue, or it's off to meshgrabber and hope something serviceable can be produced.
Clothing, yeah, featuring it in various states of undress basically boil down to hoping the CC tacked on some believable morphs (which typically only look good at 100% or 0%) and poses (prepackaged or passable). And as for tossing them on top of some object or on the floor? Well...
Clothing, yeah, featuring it in various states of undress basically boil down to hoping the CC tacked on some believable morphs (which typically only look good at 100% or 0%) and poses (prepackaged or passable). And as for tossing them on top of some object or on the floor? Well...
! REPORT
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 34,268
Tue, Jul 30, 2024You're right - about both things.
As for clothing: yes, I've seen many products myself that only rely on morphs. That doesn't work in most cases ... and even the promos of the products sometimes look a bit unsuccessful.
But things look different when Morphs AND dForce (including tuned simulation properties) are used. Unfortunately, however, dForce then determines the appearance (or rather: the details) of the clothing. You can then forget about grouped clothing (which falls apart with dForce), as well as RFN (rigid follow nodes) or a more complex mesh (hems etc) - none of this works properly for - stripables - with morphs and dForce.
My approach therefore: Clothing without a lot of frills. The object mesh optimized as cleanly as possible for dForce. Balanced simulation behavior. At least 2 dForce objects: one rigged as - slipable - and one without rigging as prop as - positionable - (incl. the possibility to throw it on the ground or hang it on something).
As for clothing: yes, I've seen many products myself that only rely on morphs. That doesn't work in most cases ... and even the promos of the products sometimes look a bit unsuccessful.
But things look different when Morphs AND dForce (including tuned simulation properties) are used. Unfortunately, however, dForce then determines the appearance (or rather: the details) of the clothing. You can then forget about grouped clothing (which falls apart with dForce), as well as RFN (rigid follow nodes) or a more complex mesh (hems etc) - none of this works properly for - stripables - with morphs and dForce.
My approach therefore: Clothing without a lot of frills. The object mesh optimized as cleanly as possible for dForce. Balanced simulation behavior. At least 2 dForce objects: one rigged as - slipable - and one without rigging as prop as - positionable - (incl. the possibility to throw it on the ground or hang it on something).
Well summarized
I will spare you some of my clothes (tights) that work in D-Force... the mesh is in constant collision with the character so as not to leave any gaps and it must work to adapt to the poses...
I can spend 4 hours just on the topology of the mesh without talking about the simulation tests or sometimes the meshes make "bubbles"...
Unreal Engine or a real-time engine could solve the problems of clothing morphs, because they would be simulated "real time" and could react with the puppet without worries, but here we are getting into something else...
I have already been confronted with the problem, for example lowering pants "under the buttocks" with the top of the character folded as far forward as possible, the projection makes a duplicate of the volume of the character and therefore the top of the pants ends up 2x shifted backwards...
Same with a morph set to zero and to the maximum but if the cursor is in the middle, the projection can be confusing.
Whatever happens, a garment that works in simulation must remain in a simple closed loop as much as possible.
On one hand, we have an infinite possibility with the morphs and on the other, a technical limitation of projection and adaptation.
I will spare you some of my clothes (tights) that work in D-Force... the mesh is in constant collision with the character so as not to leave any gaps and it must work to adapt to the poses...
I can spend 4 hours just on the topology of the mesh without talking about the simulation tests or sometimes the meshes make "bubbles"...
Unreal Engine or a real-time engine could solve the problems of clothing morphs, because they would be simulated "real time" and could react with the puppet without worries, but here we are getting into something else...
I have already been confronted with the problem, for example lowering pants "under the buttocks" with the top of the character folded as far forward as possible, the projection makes a duplicate of the volume of the character and therefore the top of the pants ends up 2x shifted backwards...
Same with a morph set to zero and to the maximum but if the cursor is in the middle, the projection can be confusing.
Whatever happens, a garment that works in simulation must remain in a simple closed loop as much as possible.
On one hand, we have an infinite possibility with the morphs and on the other, a technical limitation of projection and adaptation.
! REPORT
PasahRi
Karma: 4,710
Wed, Jul 31, 2024You' re so damn right that I would love to cuddle you
I know your products and admire them all.:
https://www.renderhub.com/v8infinite
The only reason I'm not a regular customer is that I have similar projects of my own on my hard disk and just haven't used them for renderings yet
Unfortunately, I also know enough of the bubbles you mentioned. Maybe we can create a new DAZ art form together with my corrugated cardboard look
And yeah - the DAZ app is the main problem (especially when it comes to slipables) ... unfortunately, very few users don't realize that.
If they knew what quirks, limitations, bugs and antiquities (weight mapping for example looks and feels like as developed on Atari) we as CC's have to deal with, they would voluntarily pay us double the price ... at least
But it is what it is ... and maybe the DAZ programmers will be gracious enough to give us CC's better tools, better rigging and an improved dForce.
I know your products and admire them all.:
https://www.renderhub.com/v8infinite
The only reason I'm not a regular customer is that I have similar projects of my own on my hard disk and just haven't used them for renderings yet
Unfortunately, I also know enough of the bubbles you mentioned. Maybe we can create a new DAZ art form together with my corrugated cardboard look
And yeah - the DAZ app is the main problem (especially when it comes to slipables) ... unfortunately, very few users don't realize that.
If they knew what quirks, limitations, bugs and antiquities (weight mapping for example looks and feels like as developed on Atari) we as CC's have to deal with, they would voluntarily pay us double the price ... at least
But it is what it is ... and maybe the DAZ programmers will be gracious enough to give us CC's better tools, better rigging and an improved dForce.
DoroThee237
Karma: 13,076
Wed, Jul 31, 2024In the series, bugs and antiquities I would gladly add the timeline, at least to be able to disengage the automatic calculation between 2 positions because to rectify the intermediate poses whose calculation is poorly done is ... very time-consuming (it's the only not too aggressive term that I found)
PasahRi
Karma: 4,710
Wed, Jul 31, 2024Thanks for the tip!
Thanks to all the gods and goddesses, I've never had anything to do with the timeline
And when it comes to diplomatic phrasing aka not that aggressive terms - how about this: #@!!***!###@!!!
Have a great day
Thanks to all the gods and goddesses, I've never had anything to do with the timeline
And when it comes to diplomatic phrasing aka not that aggressive terms - how about this: #@!!***!###@!!!
Have a great day
V8Infinite
Karma: 13,222
Wed, Jul 31, 2024@PasahRi Thanks, that's nice, I suspect that each creator has their own objects/mods tucked away in their hard drives
@DoroThee237 I quickly skimmed the animation on Daz and it's clearly not good in this area, I'm just a beginner in animation but from what I've heard, it's not great, not to mention its big problem with the feet sliding...
But I think there is an addon on the Official Daz store that "smoothes" the keys and creates curves to avoid pinching in the animations.
Have a nice day
@DoroThee237 I quickly skimmed the animation on Daz and it's clearly not good in this area, I'm just a beginner in animation but from what I've heard, it's not great, not to mention its big problem with the feet sliding...
But I think there is an addon on the Official Daz store that "smoothes" the keys and creates curves to avoid pinching in the animations.
Have a nice day
Well, seeing as how all this is predicated on using DAZ Studio, what I have to say may or may not rattle a few artists out there. Studio is a character generator, when you boil things down. So if you are expecting elaborate physics or things like cloth sim, you're looking in the wrong place. As illustrated, there are a few ways around this. Either you learn post processing, or you use other software.
First point: you mentioned "A 3D panty doesn't know what's underneath it " and 3D artists live by the following: If it won't be seen, pitch it. I've seen oh so many 3D assets that include panties when the clothing over said panties would never reveal a panty underneath. I rarely use them. If it won't be seen, pitch it.
The hat thing is quite complicated. For them to work anywhere near what we see in real life, you have to sim. The next best thing is to model a hat specifically for whatever you are working on. Because the standard in hair models is shaped planes called hair cards. You can sim them to some degree but they're not going to act like hair strands. And simming hair strands is extremely taxing on a system. I use hats from time to time, and that's where the post processing comes in. And honestly, if it isn't reasonably viable, I just pitch the idea. It's partly why I have been on the fence about illustration. You can draw anything that comes to mind. But it takes a lot of skill and practice to do that well. 3D is different. It is very, very technical and has a steep learning curve, and even then there are things you just can't do without a lot of intensive math calculations that are handled with a lot of power and a lot of chip real estate.. Clothing is somewhat easier than hair. Hair is, well...... I don't have any nice words for that.
Just a short mention about "states of undress" for clothing. That is a difficult ask to say the least. It takes a lot of work to rig that kind of thing. A whole bunch of people who call Studio home, have no idea what has to be done by asset developers. 3D is complicated, mkay?
Again this is all predicated on using Studio in the first place. Studio is a character generator. It's arguably the best character generator on the market. You really have to look at it as such. It's not going to complete your vision. It's 3D figure software. And there's no way I could ever rely on Studio to realize my own vision, even at 80%. I've built me some great characters but what I can do with them is extremely limited. And what springs to mind is an artist whom I have looked up to for many years. His name is Carlos Ortega Elizalde. There's a very good reason why Studio is not in his workflow. But Maya, Zbrush and Marvelous are in his toolbox. And as for myself, if there's something I need to help add to my vision, and I think I can do it, I'm going to do it. You just can't rely on Studio. Studio actually holds us back. Yes, me included. Its expediency is wonderful, but it won't come close to what I see in my mind. And as Studio users we kinda have to consider each project or image as its own thing. Because that's how it happens out in the wider 3D Character landscape. You can technically reuse a character, if you rig it. Outside of that, you're pretty much making a set of clothing for a specific use case, whether that be a static image, a single animation with sim for a short or a movie, or something for a game engine. Studio makes it easy to do regular poses with clothing to a certain degree. But for anything more elaborate, Studio shouldn't be asked, no matter what the developers of the software wedge into it. What it does have already, just doesn't cut it. Notice that the best-looking professional renders from Studio are environments. 99% of Studio (and Poser) animations are really, really bad because the tools are just barely there. Same with physics and sims. You really don't expect anything from Zbrush outside of scultping and retopology, right? Can't expect Marvelous to animate anything outside of a simple walk cycle, correct? Blender's about the only Swiss Army Knife out there and believe me, Blender isn't good at everything either. Definitely not good at baking maps, for instance. But at least you can produce an animated movie in it (with lots of addons). Studio makes us *think* we can produce our vision. Not gonna happen.
Anyway, this is an example of Carlos' work. I challenge anyone to come up with something like this in Studio. It just isn't gonna happen, son. And if I want that in my own character style, I'm gonna have to get the tools and learn'em. I'm maybe 5% of the way there *tears of pain*
https://carlosortega3d.com/black-pink
First point: you mentioned "A 3D panty doesn't know what's underneath it " and 3D artists live by the following: If it won't be seen, pitch it. I've seen oh so many 3D assets that include panties when the clothing over said panties would never reveal a panty underneath. I rarely use them. If it won't be seen, pitch it.
The hat thing is quite complicated. For them to work anywhere near what we see in real life, you have to sim. The next best thing is to model a hat specifically for whatever you are working on. Because the standard in hair models is shaped planes called hair cards. You can sim them to some degree but they're not going to act like hair strands. And simming hair strands is extremely taxing on a system. I use hats from time to time, and that's where the post processing comes in. And honestly, if it isn't reasonably viable, I just pitch the idea. It's partly why I have been on the fence about illustration. You can draw anything that comes to mind. But it takes a lot of skill and practice to do that well. 3D is different. It is very, very technical and has a steep learning curve, and even then there are things you just can't do without a lot of intensive math calculations that are handled with a lot of power and a lot of chip real estate.. Clothing is somewhat easier than hair. Hair is, well...... I don't have any nice words for that.
Just a short mention about "states of undress" for clothing. That is a difficult ask to say the least. It takes a lot of work to rig that kind of thing. A whole bunch of people who call Studio home, have no idea what has to be done by asset developers. 3D is complicated, mkay?
Again this is all predicated on using Studio in the first place. Studio is a character generator. It's arguably the best character generator on the market. You really have to look at it as such. It's not going to complete your vision. It's 3D figure software. And there's no way I could ever rely on Studio to realize my own vision, even at 80%. I've built me some great characters but what I can do with them is extremely limited. And what springs to mind is an artist whom I have looked up to for many years. His name is Carlos Ortega Elizalde. There's a very good reason why Studio is not in his workflow. But Maya, Zbrush and Marvelous are in his toolbox. And as for myself, if there's something I need to help add to my vision, and I think I can do it, I'm going to do it. You just can't rely on Studio. Studio actually holds us back. Yes, me included. Its expediency is wonderful, but it won't come close to what I see in my mind. And as Studio users we kinda have to consider each project or image as its own thing. Because that's how it happens out in the wider 3D Character landscape. You can technically reuse a character, if you rig it. Outside of that, you're pretty much making a set of clothing for a specific use case, whether that be a static image, a single animation with sim for a short or a movie, or something for a game engine. Studio makes it easy to do regular poses with clothing to a certain degree. But for anything more elaborate, Studio shouldn't be asked, no matter what the developers of the software wedge into it. What it does have already, just doesn't cut it. Notice that the best-looking professional renders from Studio are environments. 99% of Studio (and Poser) animations are really, really bad because the tools are just barely there. Same with physics and sims. You really don't expect anything from Zbrush outside of scultping and retopology, right? Can't expect Marvelous to animate anything outside of a simple walk cycle, correct? Blender's about the only Swiss Army Knife out there and believe me, Blender isn't good at everything either. Definitely not good at baking maps, for instance. But at least you can produce an animated movie in it (with lots of addons). Studio makes us *think* we can produce our vision. Not gonna happen.
Anyway, this is an example of Carlos' work. I challenge anyone to come up with something like this in Studio. It just isn't gonna happen, son. And if I want that in my own character style, I'm gonna have to get the tools and learn'em. I'm maybe 5% of the way there *tears of pain*
https://carlosortega3d.com/black-pink
! REPORT
PasahRi
Karma: 4,710
Wed, Jul 31, 2024Thank you very much for your comment and the information!
This thread is about DAZ - I didn't elaborate on that (my mistake).
It's also about DAZ users and their ideas and wish lists (for DAZ products). And it's also about DAZ users who can't or don't want to think outside the box.
Like you in your comment, I also mentioned that there are ways for DAZ users to solve the hat-hair problem - through post proc.
In other words, my thread opener is about showing DAZ users that there is (or can be) a solution available for many wishes - you just have to get involved in new things and let your brain rotate from time to time (see my Picabia motto in my profile).
The same goes for striptease or at least strippable clothing for DAZ. There ARE products out there that could make wonderful scenes with a few (sometimes fiddly) tricks ... but since many DAZ users are waiting for simple solutions (one click and everything is done) they will have to wait until the end of days.
And that's what this thread is about.
This thread is about DAZ - I didn't elaborate on that (my mistake).
It's also about DAZ users and their ideas and wish lists (for DAZ products). And it's also about DAZ users who can't or don't want to think outside the box.
Like you in your comment, I also mentioned that there are ways for DAZ users to solve the hat-hair problem - through post proc.
In other words, my thread opener is about showing DAZ users that there is (or can be) a solution available for many wishes - you just have to get involved in new things and let your brain rotate from time to time (see my Picabia motto in my profile).
The same goes for striptease or at least strippable clothing for DAZ. There ARE products out there that could make wonderful scenes with a few (sometimes fiddly) tricks ... but since many DAZ users are waiting for simple solutions (one click and everything is done) they will have to wait until the end of days.
And that's what this thread is about.
Pinspotter
Karma: 5,496
Thu, Aug 01, 2024And it's exactly why I posted my reply. Studio isn't robust enough. That's sprinkled throughout my reply.
