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GLBWhat is wrong with Renderosity?
3,107Thread Activity
mrtaured3 Hours ago
mrtaured3 Hours ago
dellamotta15 Hours ago
BobbWed, Aug 13
diogenese19348Tue, Aug 12
guy91600Mon, Aug 11
EltucoMon, Aug 11
BobbMon, Aug 11
JohnnyLuck777Sun, Aug 10
EltucoThu, Jul 24
Is Renderosity going downhill? Things look awfully strange. What happened?
I just checked the gallery "Trending Artwork" over there. Here's what I found for the top 10:
1. 23 views and 5 likes
2. 29 views and 4 likes
3. 19 views and 5 likes
4. 19 views and 5 likes
5. 24 views and 7 likes
6. 25 views and 6 likes
7. 26 views and 6 likes
8. 20 views and 4 likes
9. 17 views and 4 likes
10. 9 views and 3 likes
That's what makes it to trending???
And their forum. It's like a ghost town over there now.
Interestingly, the hottest thread there seems to be this one titled "Gallery engagement is cooked" so that can't be good.
I haven't been an active member at Renderosity for a very long time, so I really don't know what all went wrong there.
Anyway... it might be worth discussing here so the folks at RenderHub don't make the same mistake. I kinda like this place.
I just checked the gallery "Trending Artwork" over there. Here's what I found for the top 10:
1. 23 views and 5 likes
2. 29 views and 4 likes
3. 19 views and 5 likes
4. 19 views and 5 likes
5. 24 views and 7 likes
6. 25 views and 6 likes
7. 26 views and 6 likes
8. 20 views and 4 likes
9. 17 views and 4 likes
10. 9 views and 3 likes
That's what makes it to trending???
And their forum. It's like a ghost town over there now.
Interestingly, the hottest thread there seems to be this one titled "Gallery engagement is cooked" so that can't be good.
I haven't been an active member at Renderosity for a very long time, so I really don't know what all went wrong there.
Anyway... it might be worth discussing here so the folks at RenderHub don't make the same mistake. I kinda like this place.
! REPORT
Yeah I posted that thread and the response from staffers was "no things are great actually" and "your suggestions are dumb"
so... okay I guess \_(
_/
so... okay I guess \_(
_/REPLY
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JohnnyLuck777
Karma: 4,233
Thu, May 01LOL. Yeah, I saw the admin's response. I can't believe they thought that word salad spin was going to fly.
I'm also surprised that your thread hasn't been deleted already. I thought for sure it would be "cooked" too.
I'm also surprised that your thread hasn't been deleted already. I thought for sure it would be "cooked" too.
imo it really underscores what happens when a gallery allows free posting of AI generated content and when it's kept out.
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DAZ raided Renderosity and ?signed? a lot of their talent. Renderosity was my goto for clothes, the raid took most of those venders over to DAZ. I didn't participate in the Renderosity Forums or Gallery. I think it was the Raid that did most of the damage there.. also they have a new "marketing" or "sales" directory over there so that may have something to do with it as well. Oh, and any market increase here at RenderHub of course.
I like the social media pieces here at RenderHub. It's not complicated and I enjoy checking out what's new in the gallery. Also like that the vendors control their own sales instead of the memberships based sales and sale stacks Renderosity and Daz do.
I like the social media pieces here at RenderHub. It's not complicated and I enjoy checking out what's new in the gallery. Also like that the vendors control their own sales instead of the memberships based sales and sale stacks Renderosity and Daz do.
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xyer0
Karma: 555
Mon, Apr 28Actually, after the departure of longtime key personnel, Renderosity implemented a new policy changing the terms for exclusive vendors. Several vendors felt that this was a unilateral and disrespectful move. Mutiny resulted, and Daz was quite happy to one-up their main competitor by taking in the refugee vendors en masse, including a couple of whom who had been rejected for years.
So, it was less a raid by Daz and more of a reaction by vendors to a tyrannical regime.
So, it was less a raid by Daz and more of a reaction by vendors to a tyrannical regime.
diogenese19348
Karma: 325
Tue, Aug 12That's my take also, it was the change to the exclusive vendors policy. I imagine what happened is Bondware was looking to increase their revenue stream due to the Poser buy from Smith Micro, but it might also be because of the overall impact of Generative AI on 3D asset sales, I think everybody is in panic mode over that. But anyway I think the move was intended to increase revenue, was not well thought out, and had the reverse effect. Unfortunately you can't put the Genie back into the bottle once released.
Frankly at this point I spend more money here than at either DAZ or Renderosity though that may be because I have been a customer at the other two a long time and have picked up all the back catalog stuff I want from them, here I haven't as of yet.
Frankly at this point I spend more money here than at either DAZ or Renderosity though that may be because I have been a customer at the other two a long time and have picked up all the back catalog stuff I want from them, here I haven't as of yet.
I was a contributor of free stuff for DAZ Studio on Renderosity. My last product was on October 29, 2021. https://www.renderosity.com/users/guy91600/freestuff
Today, I'm ranked 5th in the top contributor list!
I can't forget that my account was banned twice because of images. My account was temporarily blocked, meaning I couldn't access the site's messaging system. I wasn't notified by email. It was when my account was unblocked that I learned the reason and duration of the blockage via the site's messaging system.
After the third block, my account will be permanently closed. It's a strange way to treat your customers, so don't act surprised when they go to see if the grass is greener elsewhere or if it grows faster.
Today, I'm ranked 5th in the top contributor list!
I can't forget that my account was banned twice because of images. My account was temporarily blocked, meaning I couldn't access the site's messaging system. I wasn't notified by email. It was when my account was unblocked that I learned the reason and duration of the blockage via the site's messaging system.
After the third block, my account will be permanently closed. It's a strange way to treat your customers, so don't act surprised when they go to see if the grass is greener elsewhere or if it grows faster.
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Masterstroke
Karma: 3,862
Fri, Jun 13I can tell you that Rotica is even worse.
An image has been deleted for being against the TOS.
I adressed that in the forum and got banned immediatly, without explaination.
I e-mailed them and they were rudeand thretening. they didn't even give me the chance to download my purchased files.
I asked them to delete my gallery. They did agree, but stated, that they are genrous in that, because they claimed that everything I uploaded would be theirs.
Renderosity sucks, but Rotica is worse.
An image has been deleted for being against the TOS.
I adressed that in the forum and got banned immediatly, without explaination.
I e-mailed them and they were rudeand thretening. they didn't even give me the chance to download my purchased files.
I asked them to delete my gallery. They did agree, but stated, that they are genrous in that, because they claimed that everything I uploaded would be theirs.
Renderosity sucks, but Rotica is worse.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 36,729
Fri, Jun 13@Masterstroke
Hmmm ... unfortunately I can't agree with you - not at all. Sorry
I know your pictures - and I know the 'rotica gallery. Either you've done some incredibly crude stuff (and there's some stomach-turning stuff in their gallery) ... or you haven't posted at 'rotica, but at CGbytes (the mother of Rotica)?
Hmmm ... unfortunately I can't agree with you - not at all. Sorry
I know your pictures - and I know the 'rotica gallery. Either you've done some incredibly crude stuff (and there's some stomach-turning stuff in their gallery) ... or you haven't posted at 'rotica, but at CGbytes (the mother of Rotica)?
Masterstroke
Karma: 3,862
Fri, Jun 13the image in question:
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/21438/love-82
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/21438/love-82
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 36,729
Fri, Jun 13Huhhhhh????
The only thing I can think of regarding the TOS is that the model was classified as a minor by a dumbwit.
Honestly - I've never had any problems with them. We're talking about Renderotica (aka Torture Hell), right?
The only thing I can think of regarding the TOS is that the model was classified as a minor by a dumbwit.
Honestly - I've never had any problems with them. We're talking about Renderotica (aka Torture Hell), right?
Masterstroke
Karma: 3,862
Fri, Jun 13Quote:
"The only thing I can think of regarding the TOS is that the model was classified as a minor by a dumbwit."
Turned out later, that that was the case, but it has never been explained to me, until a heated e-mail exchange.
first the image has been taken down, than I complained, then they deleted my account without explaination.
Quote:
"We're talking about Renderotica (aka Torture Hell), right?"
yes
context:
We're talking about a web site, where they don't have a problem with 3d content showing raped and mutilated women.
"The only thing I can think of regarding the TOS is that the model was classified as a minor by a dumbwit."
Turned out later, that that was the case, but it has never been explained to me, until a heated e-mail exchange.
first the image has been taken down, than I complained, then they deleted my account without explaination.
Quote:
"We're talking about Renderotica (aka Torture Hell), right?"
yes
context:
We're talking about a web site, where they don't have a problem with 3d content showing raped and mutilated women.
There is nothing new, you will see works with few views and many likes, groups ... small groups ... sympathies, this counts more than what you propose, but it is a problem of all platforms, DA and this one included
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Yeah what I'm saying is their gallery viewership has dropped off a cliff. I've been a long time user of that since since around 2007 and some of my very old terrible shit would get hundreds of views. I can see the difference in site activity between here and there in particular, it's just declined so much. The site design has been basically the same for almost *twenty years* now so that probably does not help, but I think the people dumping 8 generative AI pics a day has done a lot of real damage to the userbase and their desires to actually look at stuff that is interesting.
this is absolutely nothing at all to do with my personal numbers, I'm talking about site legends that have giant follower lists cultivated over 10 or 15 years of regular interactions and vast amounts of work and time.
this is absolutely nothing at all to do with my personal numbers, I'm talking about site legends that have giant follower lists cultivated over 10 or 15 years of regular interactions and vast amounts of work and time.
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Quote: I haven't been an active member at Renderosity for a very long time, so I really don't know what all went wrong there.
Renderosity is primarily a Poser site.
Beyond some ornamental surface level changes
what new and exciting things has Bondware done with the poser software in the six years since they bought, in a fire sale, from the previous owner Smith Micro??.
Poser is vestigial necroware with ZERO foot print
in the general online 3D content market and this is reflected in the Poser forums over at Renderosity where any honest discussion about the status of poser in the prefab 3D marketplace is instantly shouted down by the rabble of loyalist volunteers that the absentee landlords have left in charge over there.
Additionally the Renderosity (flea)marketplace has long ago become nothing more than an Ad hub and discount outlet for Daz Genesis female content.
Renderosity is primarily a Poser site.
Beyond some ornamental surface level changes
what new and exciting things has Bondware done with the poser software in the six years since they bought, in a fire sale, from the previous owner Smith Micro??.
Poser is vestigial necroware with ZERO foot print
in the general online 3D content market and this is reflected in the Poser forums over at Renderosity where any honest discussion about the status of poser in the prefab 3D marketplace is instantly shouted down by the rabble of loyalist volunteers that the absentee landlords have left in charge over there.
Additionally the Renderosity (flea)marketplace has long ago become nothing more than an Ad hub and discount outlet for Daz Genesis female content.
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Bobb
Karma: 802
Wed, Aug 13Rendo still has a few excellent content artists although I can't imagine why they're still there. A few have their own sites, TruForm, Powerage and Tim82 are great and I regularly buy their items.
The amount of AI and as well allowing to sell 2d backgrounds made with AI (too obvious not to see it).
And they are deleting threads so fast, just look at the Break room, it says 131 threads with 731 posts, open it and you'll find 3 threads, including 10 replies.
Or even better, the ALL VENDORS - La Femme Figure Content Development Forum, it is EMPTY!
All the vendors that left rosity and went over to daz (with all the dumping price sales, I wonder, what they won)
It seems, rosity's days are counted. People are leaving, going to other places, other small little stores are popping up, it's like a step back in time when we had a huge amount of little nice stores with prices, people were able to afford.
And they are deleting threads so fast, just look at the Break room, it says 131 threads with 731 posts, open it and you'll find 3 threads, including 10 replies.
Or even better, the ALL VENDORS - La Femme Figure Content Development Forum, it is EMPTY!
All the vendors that left rosity and went over to daz (with all the dumping price sales, I wonder, what they won)
It seems, rosity's days are counted. People are leaving, going to other places, other small little stores are popping up, it's like a step back in time when we had a huge amount of little nice stores with prices, people were able to afford.
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Quote: Or even better, the ALL VENDORS - La Femme Figure Content Development Forum, it is EMPTY!
Well that is because Lafemme 1 & 2 looks like some legacy throwback figure from 2004 , thus is not supported any vendors outside of that tiny "faction" of the loyalists rabble.
At this point Renderosity ,and the Poser software itself, is being fully subsidized by Daz genesis content sales.
Well that is because Lafemme 1 & 2 looks like some legacy throwback figure from 2004 , thus is not supported any vendors outside of that tiny "faction" of the loyalists rabble.
At this point Renderosity ,and the Poser software itself, is being fully subsidized by Daz genesis content sales.
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Actually, (almost) everything has already been said - but I would still like to present my personal view of things here:
LIKES
The few likes that even really good pictures (from others) got always surprised me too. For me, it was sometimes more nice comments than likes. Well ...
GALLERY
Infected with AI crap ....
FORUM
Too cumbersome and confusing. I like to babble ... but if I have to click my way through menus, submenus etc.: no thanks!
Another point would then be migration. It has already been mentioned that many have migrated to DAZ. Others - like me - eventually got fed up with the paternalism. Rendo not only dictates how products have to be, but also how they have to be presented (from the UI (!) to the promo pictures). And even the price is dictated (they have a minimum price list).
Here is an entry from another user on DA:
https://www.deviantart.com/sickleyield/journal/Why-I-No-Longer-Sell-At-Renderosity-859745606
LIKES
The few likes that even really good pictures (from others) got always surprised me too. For me, it was sometimes more nice comments than likes. Well ...
GALLERY
Infected with AI crap ....
FORUM
Too cumbersome and confusing. I like to babble ... but if I have to click my way through menus, submenus etc.: no thanks!
Another point would then be migration. It has already been mentioned that many have migrated to DAZ. Others - like me - eventually got fed up with the paternalism. Rendo not only dictates how products have to be, but also how they have to be presented (from the UI (!) to the promo pictures). And even the price is dictated (they have a minimum price list).
Here is an entry from another user on DA:
https://www.deviantart.com/sickleyield/journal/Why-I-No-Longer-Sell-At-Renderosity-859745606
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Yeah they have a baffling store policy where if something hasn't sold for X amount of time it is just removed, to force churn of new content I guess? My brief time trying to sell there left a really bad taste in my mouth (seeing my handful of items getting immediately pirated didn't feel good either)
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They also went to that tier 1-5 concept with the vendors. That pissed off a lot of people.
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I first played with Poser when it was given away on a CD (remember those?) in the back of a computer magazine (I think it was 'Boot'). It crashed every five seconds and had a GUI that echoed 'Kai's Power Goo' but it was fun and original. I played with it and put up with the crashes and ignored all the politics that where going on as it traded hands. When Studio came out I gave it a try and never opened Poser again. Studio was free, opened all of Poser's items, had a sensible and intuitive GUI and was rock-solid stable. The early versions ran for weeks (really, trullio!) without needing a restart.
I understand that someone called 'Nerd3D' is one of the key players/owners/programmers(?) and along with a few others, is hysterically loyal and consider Daz and Studio to be the work of the devil. Poser isn't software.....it's a religion and is worshipped by it's delusional loyalists. How the place is still in business is beyond me.
I sent a message to whomever runs the forums suggesting that they fix the screwball GUI, fix the legendary instability, and make it 100% compatible with Daz's format. You'd have thought that I was suggesting that she (I'm pretty sure the person is a lady) cook and eat her own children.
I no longer browse the forums and drop by once a day to see if there's anything worth buying. There's still a few excellent vendors there ("Hi TruForm!") but I don't discuss Rendo's failings with them. I'm sure they'll migrate somewhere else eventually.
My only wish is that I knew each of their personal emails so that when it dies (can't be long now) I can email them and say I told ya so.
I understand that someone called 'Nerd3D' is one of the key players/owners/programmers(?) and along with a few others, is hysterically loyal and consider Daz and Studio to be the work of the devil. Poser isn't software.....it's a religion and is worshipped by it's delusional loyalists. How the place is still in business is beyond me.
I sent a message to whomever runs the forums suggesting that they fix the screwball GUI, fix the legendary instability, and make it 100% compatible with Daz's format. You'd have thought that I was suggesting that she (I'm pretty sure the person is a lady) cook and eat her own children.
I no longer browse the forums and drop by once a day to see if there's anything worth buying. There's still a few excellent vendors there ("Hi TruForm!") but I don't discuss Rendo's failings with them. I'm sure they'll migrate somewhere else eventually.
My only wish is that I knew each of their personal emails so that when it dies (can't be long now) I can email them and say I told ya so.
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guy91600
Karma: 12,988
Sun, Apr 27Posing on CD, yes, I remember. I must have had two or three versions with a French magazine, Computer Arts, which also gave tips for Photoshop.
I've currently had version 13 for a few days. I'm using it in demo mode for now, which allows me to convert some props I made for Daz. Honestly, for now, only the free product is downloaded, and there's no rating, which doesn't really encourage me to persevere in learning this product.
I agree with Bobb Daz Studio; it's much more intuitive and easier to make clothing fit the figure.
I've currently had version 13 for a few days. I'm using it in demo mode for now, which allows me to convert some props I made for Daz. Honestly, for now, only the free product is downloaded, and there's no rating, which doesn't really encourage me to persevere in learning this product.
I agree with Bobb Daz Studio; it's much more intuitive and easier to make clothing fit the figure.
Quote: I understand that someone called 'Nerd3D' is one of the key players/owners/programmers(?) and along with a few others, is hysterically loyal and consider Daz and Studio to be the work of the devil. Poser isn't software.....it's a religion and is worshipped by it's delusional loyalists.
Well stated facts^
I once made a post in a Poser facebook group showing
how I had used blender to re-rig the Poser 6 female "Jessie" figure with a professional human Ik control rig for animation inside Blender.
No mention of Daz or Genesis
I was immediately assailed as some sort of heretic
and warned that trying to lure people away from poser was strictly forbidden.
Meanwhile Daz has specialized export bridges to Blender, Maya , C4D, the major Game engines and subforums dedicated to discussion of their usage to at least encourage sales of their store products by people working in other Ecosystems.
Well stated facts^
I once made a post in a Poser facebook group showing
how I had used blender to re-rig the Poser 6 female "Jessie" figure with a professional human Ik control rig for animation inside Blender.
No mention of Daz or Genesis
I was immediately assailed as some sort of heretic
and warned that trying to lure people away from poser was strictly forbidden.
Meanwhile Daz has specialized export bridges to Blender, Maya , C4D, the major Game engines and subforums dedicated to discussion of their usage to at least encourage sales of their store products by people working in other Ecosystems.
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Years ago, I always wanted to do something for DAZ, and the circle was very closed, only two stores dominated the market(Daz and Renderosity), and their filters were difficult to pass, you had to have a very high level of quality, for them to supposedly give you a chance, it was almost impossible for a 3D novice to meet their demands, a few years ago there began to be more store options, among them Renderhub, they gave me the opportunity to upload a model despite being a novice, which I greatly appreciate, over time and I have improved my work, but without the opportunity of Renderhub, I would never have been able to continue developing my 3D talent and earn money.
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deathd
Karma: 1,509
Sun, Apr 27Yeah, I wish I found this place sooner. I rage deleted a bunch of products daz rejected with a canned response. I wish I knew about this place and sold them here lol.
Rendo banned me over a decade ago with the short and cryptic message of "piracy", so I just stopped going there at all, never even thought about trying to sell my stuff there after that. I hadn't really done much there either, didn't get a chance to buy anything, made like maybe ten forum comments, and two image posts, that's about it.
Rendo banned me over a decade ago with the short and cryptic message of "piracy", so I just stopped going there at all, never even thought about trying to sell my stuff there after that. I hadn't really done much there either, didn't get a chance to buy anything, made like maybe ten forum comments, and two image posts, that's about it.
supremoomega
Karma: 4,317
Sun, Apr 27Several Rendorosity sellers told me that they alone decided whether your 3D work was "good and saleable," and that you had to follow all the rules; otherwise, they would ban or remove your product without giving you the option to appeal their decisions. This forced many 3D artists to migrate to other stores.
At renderosity, It is the ridiculous amount of Ai art that literally suffocates the 3D artist's creativity. I think this community here at Renderhub, which is far more welcoming to 3D art expression.
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Beautiful Misfits
Karma: 16,037
Sun, Apr 27What really pisses me off is, that they allow to sell AI pictures as backgrounds.
I mean, if it would be marked as AI and people know, they pay money for something they could easily do for free with almost any AI program, ok. Not right, but ok.
If anyone here has ever tried Midjourney (I did in the beginning) knows, how Midjourney spit out kitten and puppies, the "stamp" is clear to see.
I wrote it to renderosity, but nothing happened, they just don't care.
I mean, if it would be marked as AI and people know, they pay money for something they could easily do for free with almost any AI program, ok. Not right, but ok.
If anyone here has ever tried Midjourney (I did in the beginning) knows, how Midjourney spit out kitten and puppies, the "stamp" is clear to see.
I wrote it to renderosity, but nothing happened, they just don't care.
I have to say, it really blows my mind that in the Daz store there's multiple spread vagina morphs selling like hotcakes, when did they relax about that kind of thing? and Renderosity is still enforcing their very conservative content policy that hasn't changed at all in 20 years as far as I can tell.
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Tenserknot
Karma: 7,291
Mon, Jun 16They relaxed when the dollars earned tightened on regular content, and they figured renderotica customers are an untapped market.
Daz has sold adult genitalia from many years under the euphemistic appellation of "anatomical elements."
They remain very strict about what images can be shown in publicly accessible
promo images, galleries and of course forum posts.
They remain very strict about what images can be shown in publicly accessible
promo images, galleries and of course forum posts.
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Masterstroke
Karma: 3,862
Sun, Apr 27Galleries, Forum images are still strict, but store promos are more explicit now.
Excessive
Karma: 7,883
Sun, Apr 27Yeah, you can see up into her lungs in the promo pics for some of those listings. And they are heavily promoted, so they're probably selling like gangbusters (and to be fair they're really nicely done).
Excessive
Karma: 7,883
Sun, Apr 27I hate to toot my own horn, actually I kind of like tooting my own horn, but they're all distantly behind my own VEX free item namaste
I'm frustrated that vendors are listed by number of products rather than alphabetically.
What marketing moron thought that that was a good idea? How the heck are you supposed to find someone?
What marketing moron thought that that was a good idea? How the heck are you supposed to find someone?
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Tenserknot
Karma: 7,291
Tue, Apr 29The odds are the most prolific vendors (most products) are the ones people want to find.
Speaking of what's wrong with Renderosity, is the current "Artist of the Month" contest. All four of the nominees this month seem to be lacking in, everything.
https://www.renderosity.com/article/29497/make-it-count-vote-now-for-renderositys-artist-of-the-month
https://www.renderosity.com/article/29497/make-it-count-vote-now-for-renderositys-artist-of-the-month
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Masterstroke
Karma: 3,862
Tue, Apr 29Just look into the Poser gallery section at Rendo. Look at their monthly gallery pick.
The most polite way to put it, is to brand it as 90s render-nostalgia.
The most polite way to put it, is to brand it as 90s render-nostalgia.
Beautiful Misfits
Karma: 16,037
Tue, Apr 29I know it sounds forcking arrogant to say this, but damned, my render look better than any of those.
Ok, as I said, arrogant, but can't help myself, there is nothing special with any of the shown render.
And some haven't been active for 2 years now, so wth?
Ok, as I said, arrogant, but can't help myself, there is nothing special with any of the shown render.
And some haven't been active for 2 years now, so wth?
Excessive
Karma: 7,883
Tue, Apr 29yeah only one of them has posted since the beginning of the year, what a baffling selection ???
JohnnyLuck777
Karma: 4,233
Thu, May 01Are they serious? Artist of THIS month in 2025??? Two of the four nominees haven't posted anything since 2023. Weird...
I suspect that the user facing part of the site is being run by loyalist volunteers making the minimal performative effort.
The absentee landlords are likely only concerned with
collecting the ad revenue and the heavily Daz genesis female product sales revenue.
BTW Bondware has announced the they will not support
any future version of the Mac OS beyond the current one
so for whatever tiny portion of the poser user base is on OSX, the clock is ticking.
The absentee landlords are likely only concerned with
collecting the ad revenue and the heavily Daz genesis female product sales revenue.
BTW Bondware has announced the they will not support
any future version of the Mac OS beyond the current one
so for whatever tiny portion of the poser user base is on OSX, the clock is ticking.
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Beautiful Misfits
Karma: 16,037
Tue, Apr 29Not support Mac OS any longer?
How stupid can one be, maybe there aren't that many, but for sure still more than enough to piss off too many customers.
How stupid can one be, maybe there aren't that many, but for sure still more than enough to piss off too many customers.
There was (and still is) a Poser group on the usenet (NNTP). It too was hysterically loyal but I watched it change over the years as many (most?) of the members came to see how bad poser was and slowly migrated to Studio.
I drop in there every so often and it's now empty except for spam.
I drop in there every so often and it's now empty except for spam.
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Ragamuffin
Karma: 654
Tue, Apr 29Usenet. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Man. That place could start the hottest arguments over the lowest possible stakes
Oh F...!
That's Renderosity's Poser 13 ad?!
REALLY?!
https://www.renderosity.com/poser
A promo render for a software should display its full potential.
THIS is hardley better than the old Poser 5 promo render.
... and keep in Mind, that they demand your money for this.
That's Renderosity's Poser 13 ad?!
REALLY?!
https://www.renderosity.com/poser
A promo render for a software should display its full potential.
THIS is hardley better than the old Poser 5 promo render.
... and keep in Mind, that they demand your money for this.
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Beautiful Misfits
Karma: 16,037
Wed, Apr 30*lol* I had exactly the same thought, nothing special to see with this render.
ArtbyMel
Karma: 10,734
Wed, Apr 30Dear lord, that looks terrible!! I have not upgraded Poser since PP2012. Frankly, I can produce far better renders with that then what I'm seeing with their newest version!!
Beautiful Misfits
Karma: 16,037
Wed, Apr 30Naaa, Doris was better looking, but I agree on the Z-train 
Tenserknot
Karma: 7,291
Wed, Apr 30Never upgraded beyond Poser8, and don't miss it at all. That there is a $140 price tag on Poser13 at this point is stupifying. VUe is now available for free download. and that is a powerhouse program. DazStudio has always been, and delivers amazing results. Unreal and Unity Game engines are also free to use, and are surprisingly good instant renderers. There is some kind of "timewarp" oddness with the Poser community.
As others have said, what remains of the Poser community are the fanatical diehards.
There is no reasoning with them.
I have long since not even bothered looking in the gallery, especially these days since the AI thing.
Obviously, the selling of Genesis items is what is keeping the site going.
I suppose, understandably & unfortunately , there is more Genesis 9 stuff included in recent times, with a commensurate drop in quality.
They have lost a lot of their better, established vendors to Daz, but for me where their strength lies is in their marketing style. It is much more flexible than Daz's approach which is arcane & random 'Buy this to get a discount on that.'
Often, I don't want 'this', but I would like 'that' at a discount.
There is no reasoning with them.
I have long since not even bothered looking in the gallery, especially these days since the AI thing.
Obviously, the selling of Genesis items is what is keeping the site going.
I suppose, understandably & unfortunately , there is more Genesis 9 stuff included in recent times, with a commensurate drop in quality.
They have lost a lot of their better, established vendors to Daz, but for me where their strength lies is in their marketing style. It is much more flexible than Daz's approach which is arcane & random 'Buy this to get a discount on that.'
Often, I don't want 'this', but I would like 'that' at a discount.
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I'm sad to see them basically sink into the oblivion because more stores are better than less stores, both for vendors and for customers. And we have lost many stores over the years with Daz being the recipient of all those stores content.
Rendo was my go to store for many years for skimpwear. With Daz picking up their best artists and loosening their own restrictions on mature content, I'm not really sure how Renderosity going to stay relevant. If you're a new vendor starting off, I see no reason to jump through all of Renderosity's hoops when starting out here is pretty simple (Thanks, Renderhub team).
Rendo was my go to store for many years for skimpwear. With Daz picking up their best artists and loosening their own restrictions on mature content, I'm not really sure how Renderosity going to stay relevant. If you're a new vendor starting off, I see no reason to jump through all of Renderosity's hoops when starting out here is pretty simple (Thanks, Renderhub team).
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Nothing lasts forever, even cold November rain.
Entropy always wins.
Nothing's immune to it.
Entropy always wins.
Nothing's immune to it.
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Things would improve if they didn't, without warning, make sudden arbitrary changes to the detriment of their customers.
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The scarcity of young blood is a significant issue, as there are no new users, only old loyalists. Consequently, rendo will eventually die out, as there will be no one left to replace the old guard.
It's pretty much dead software; the user interface is still geared toward loyalists from decades ago, and their first-party figures, which are what these kinds of programs are all about, are horribly outdated and only offer stylized realism, while Genesis is really pushing the limits of realism…
And their gallery is full of low-effort spam posts and cheap AI, so I don't see any reason to post any artwork there, as far as their forums are concerned it was always an easily offended environment with ban-happy staff, as you had to walk on eggshells as the staff's skin is far too thin, and are easily offended by anything that doesn't contain saccharine ass-kissing and the like.
I only visit rendo when I need a rare item that I can't find here or at DAZ.
It's pretty much dead software; the user interface is still geared toward loyalists from decades ago, and their first-party figures, which are what these kinds of programs are all about, are horribly outdated and only offer stylized realism, while Genesis is really pushing the limits of realism…
And their gallery is full of low-effort spam posts and cheap AI, so I don't see any reason to post any artwork there, as far as their forums are concerned it was always an easily offended environment with ban-happy staff, as you had to walk on eggshells as the staff's skin is far too thin, and are easily offended by anything that doesn't contain saccharine ass-kissing and the like.
I only visit rendo when I need a rare item that I can't find here or at DAZ.
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TZO3k1
Karma: 796
Sat, May 10Thanks for saying so, yeah, I've been at rendo for decades and it kind of sucks to see it go out like this, but the forums are real telling as it feels more like an office environment rather than a 3D software forum as it takes itself too personally…
The moment they rejected Daz's characters was their undoing as their 1st party characters feel too much like user submitted characters rather than based on professional character design, imagine if they did allow genesis for poser, they would NOT be in the position that they are now!
It also did not help that poser is now owned by rendo, which is on its last legs as rendo is less an industry leader and more of a niche Facebook group as it cannot take any criticism, either from one's self, or from others, hence it's retarding growth and current decline…
The moment they rejected Daz's characters was their undoing as their 1st party characters feel too much like user submitted characters rather than based on professional character design, imagine if they did allow genesis for poser, they would NOT be in the position that they are now!
It also did not help that poser is now owned by rendo, which is on its last legs as rendo is less an industry leader and more of a niche Facebook group as it cannot take any criticism, either from one's self, or from others, hence it's retarding growth and current decline…
guy91600
Karma: 12,988
Sat, May 10Renderosity has absolutely mastered the art of shooting itself in the foot. After that, it's no wonder they stopped moving forward!
TZO3k1
Karma: 796
Sat, May 10Indeed, it's the only shop online that I know of that requires staffers to manually approve purchased products for download, it's fuckin' idiotic as that pretty much kills purchases after hours and/or on the weekends, I mean it's the WORLD-WIDE web for fuck's sake imagine the mountain of lost sales due to their idiocy!
JohnnyLuck777
Karma: 4,233
Mon, Jun 16The Renderosity staff manually approves purchases now? As in, you can't download your products right away? I did not know that. Wow, that's crazy.
TZO3k1
Karma: 796
Mon, Jun 16Shit, did a deep dive and downloads that require activation from staff are only for new buyers, which is still idiotic for an online shop, this is why I'd like to see an edit function in these forums!
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,150
Mon, Jun 16Here's another fun anecdote from Renderosity.
So I had an account from like 10 years ago? I used to buy there a lot, and then when I open my seller account which I ended up not using, they asked.
Hey are you, this user too?
I was like, uh... I think... yeah, that was me, why?
It's just odd you have two accounts...
So, they are tracking you by IP, cookie, or something, weird but, whatever.
So I had an account from like 10 years ago? I used to buy there a lot, and then when I open my seller account which I ended up not using, they asked.
Hey are you, this user too?
I was like, uh... I think... yeah, that was me, why?
It's just odd you have two accounts...
So, they are tracking you by IP, cookie, or something, weird but, whatever.
TZO3k1
Karma: 796
Mon, Jun 16They are most definitely tracking your IP, as membership to that place is through the marketplace, as that's the only place you can change your account info, such as CC#, physical address, and the like…
Yet I cannot buy from that shop with my current card as the deactivated one that they have on file, needs to be *current, and activated* in order for the transitional update of my CC info/address/etc to occur…
So I cannot due to not having access to the process that would start and finish the update of my CC info, due to not having the current CC info on file!
It's like being caught in a “feedback, loop…br>
But in all fairness, the last time I tried to correct this, the staff were unable to rectify the situation due to non-familiarity of the functions upon which their payment/account system had been designed; but that was several years ago, I'll try to see if the current staff can fix the issue again before I judge them any further… In the meantime, PayPal's a good option.
Yet I cannot buy from that shop with my current card as the deactivated one that they have on file, needs to be *current, and activated* in order for the transitional update of my CC info/address/etc to occur…
So I cannot due to not having access to the process that would start and finish the update of my CC info, due to not having the current CC info on file!
It's like being caught in a “feedback, loop…br>
But in all fairness, the last time I tried to correct this, the staff were unable to rectify the situation due to non-familiarity of the functions upon which their payment/account system had been designed; but that was several years ago, I'll try to see if the current staff can fix the issue again before I judge them any further… In the meantime, PayPal's a good option.
TZO3k1
Karma: 796
Mon, Jun 23EDIT: I actually was able to change my CC# it looks like they changed their checkout system, so all's well, as I was able to buy no problem.
And to be fair, I hadn't bought anything from them in at least a year before now, so they really changed their system for the better.
And to be fair, I hadn't bought anything from them in at least a year before now, so they really changed their system for the better.
I left this sinking ship 3 years ago after being artist of the month and year but I still wait for my prize. After Ai flooded I had enough and had my account deleted on request.
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JohnnyLuck777
Karma: 4,233
Mon, Jun 16Ironically, I literally just came from your gallery here and liked some of your stuff. You do nice work. I'm guessing you mean Renderosity did that to you. Sorry to hear that.
Bobb
Karma: 802
Mon, Jun 23I also had a look through your work and am impressed, you've got an interesting 'eye'. I'll bet you studied art didn't you.
GMArtworks
Karma: 15,267
Mon, Jun 23Thanks!
Didn't study anything for my graphic work but after 30 years you must have learned something?
I'm a hardcore autodidact
Didn't study anything for my graphic work but after 30 years you must have learned something?
I'm a hardcore autodidact
It's just a hobby for me. An expensive one though.
I actually still buy quite alot from Rendo and the 20 years I've been shopping there, I've never actually uploaded an image and only participated in the forums a few times. Forums, everywhere seem to be going the way of the 'Dodo bird' simply because of other alternatives, along with the strong willed, strong belief individuals that simply will run off the average hobbiest at least in terms of posting to the thread. Does make for some good sit back and eat popcorn moments!
Sad to see Poser struggling. Its where I started and would still be if Daz hadn't moved everything to the duf. format. Maybe a good move in the short term for Daz but might be biting them in the keester these days, especially with AI and their new tiered membership packages, along with hiding some of the popular plug-ins and scripts hidden behind the premier pricing.
I actually still buy quite alot from Rendo and the 20 years I've been shopping there, I've never actually uploaded an image and only participated in the forums a few times. Forums, everywhere seem to be going the way of the 'Dodo bird' simply because of other alternatives, along with the strong willed, strong belief individuals that simply will run off the average hobbiest at least in terms of posting to the thread. Does make for some good sit back and eat popcorn moments!
Sad to see Poser struggling. Its where I started and would still be if Daz hadn't moved everything to the duf. format. Maybe a good move in the short term for Daz but might be biting them in the keester these days, especially with AI and their new tiered membership packages, along with hiding some of the popular plug-ins and scripts hidden behind the premier pricing.
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dirtrider00
Karma: 16,490
Sat, May 10Well, from my personal perspective as basically a consumer, Rendo is just Rendo. Daz and the Daz business model is actually the one pushing me away, especially since I decided to let my Daz+ expire.
Klutz
Karma: 7,347
Thu, Jun 12Yes. I have never liked Daz's marketing style. It gives me the impression of smoke & mirrors.or bait & switch :0/
Here have a good discount on this by buying that.
Here have a good discount on this by buying that.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,490
Thu, Jun 12Thats no lie. Plus most of the characters and assets are for 9 which I don't use so I'm basically just throwing sets and props into the wishlist with the rare exception and plan on buying a month of premier in September when they have the PA sale (assuming they'll still have it) and going to town for cheap. Hate doing it that way because I would rather pay the vendors for their hard work but thats Daz's game so guess I'll play my way by their rules.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,490
Fri, Jun 13Still buy quite a bit here and over at Renderosity, though mostly set and props. Pretty stocked up on G8 characters and clothing though I still buy poses with the occasional character or clothing item. Now if someone made some baseball gloves and uniforms with a lie numbering system and poses, I'd lap that stuff up like a hungry man on a deserted island getting to eat barbecue!
Masterstroke
Karma: 3,862
Mon, Jun 23Quote:
"Well, from my personal perspective as basically a consumer, Rendo is just Rendo. Daz and the Daz business model is actually the one pushing me away, especially since I decided to let my Daz+ expire."
DAZ has major problems and I don't like, what they're doing, but Rendo is just worse.
As soon as the last favorit vendor from Rendo moves to here or DAZ, I will delete my account there.
They can go to hell with their scam-ware, that used to be Poser.
"Well, from my personal perspective as basically a consumer, Rendo is just Rendo. Daz and the Daz business model is actually the one pushing me away, especially since I decided to let my Daz+ expire."
DAZ has major problems and I don't like, what they're doing, but Rendo is just worse.
As soon as the last favorit vendor from Rendo moves to here or DAZ, I will delete my account there.
They can go to hell with their scam-ware, that used to be Poser.
Quote:Sad to see Poser struggling. Its where I started and would still be if Daz hadn't moved everything to the duf. format. Maybe a good move in the short term for Daz but might be biting them in the keester these days, especially with AI
backed when Daz announced the arrival of genesis 1 and the DSON standard they proudly blustered about having approached
the Autodesk & Maxon community about possibly adopting the genesis format
I politely informed them that while genesis was an innovation relative to current poser figure technology, it could not really compare to a rig built in Maya to use in Maya and I posted a link to the works of a well known Maya Character rigger as an example
https://vimeo.com/user2971392
Daz Deleted my post for " expressing opinion as fact."
Here we are many years later with Genesis
1,2,3,8,9 having been ignored completely by the pro users in the the video game and animated film industry despite Daz's many efforts to entice them with useless "bridge plugins"
most of which are outdated and do not even work with the latest versions of Maya UE5 or Maxon Cinema4D.
Leaving Daz to try and squeeze more cash from the existing core user base by locking features behind rentware schemes.
backed when Daz announced the arrival of genesis 1 and the DSON standard they proudly blustered about having approached
the Autodesk & Maxon community about possibly adopting the genesis format
I politely informed them that while genesis was an innovation relative to current poser figure technology, it could not really compare to a rig built in Maya to use in Maya and I posted a link to the works of a well known Maya Character rigger as an example
https://vimeo.com/user2971392
Daz Deleted my post for " expressing opinion as fact."
Here we are many years later with Genesis
1,2,3,8,9 having been ignored completely by the pro users in the the video game and animated film industry despite Daz's many efforts to entice them with useless "bridge plugins"
most of which are outdated and do not even work with the latest versions of Maya UE5 or Maxon Cinema4D.
Leaving Daz to try and squeeze more cash from the existing core user base by locking features behind rentware schemes.
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Tenserknot
Karma: 7,291
Fri, Jun 13it is sort of a badge of honor to get silenced and stifled by the richard guy. the truth hurts.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 36,729
Fri, Jun 13@Tenserknot
" ... to get silenced and stifled by the richard guy "
Haha . that " richard guy " (quote) made me grin
" ... to get silenced and stifled by the richard guy "
Haha . that " richard guy " (quote) made me grin
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 36,729
Fri, Jun 13@Tenserknot
The Hassel? Yeah ... I do call him something else in my mind when he posts his fragmented answers (which usually don't even have anything to do with the question) ... but yes: I've read him too
The Hassel? Yeah ... I do call him something else in my mind when he posts his fragmented answers (which usually don't even have anything to do with the question) ... but yes: I've read him too
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,150
Mon, Jun 16LOL, please do share, don't leave us hanging, what pops into your mind?
This is what got me put on lifetime "post pre approval required", status in the Daz forums years ago
I posted a link to a random Daz/Tafi asset
in the Unity asset store and asked ,how is the video game dev content going?
https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/3d/props/clothing/street-smarts-girl-female-from-tafi-186845#reviews
Four years in the market and ZERO reviews.
It really hurt their feelings.
I posted a link to a random Daz/Tafi asset
in the Unity asset store and asked ,how is the video game dev content going?
https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/3d/props/clothing/street-smarts-girl-female-from-tafi-186845#reviews
Four years in the market and ZERO reviews.
It really hurt their feelings.
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I was banned from the Daz forums for years by that Haseltine asshole and finally gave them an ultimatum last month. Unban me NOW or I'll cancel my account. I was a regular purchaser there.
I got some bullshit response from the sales department so I sent a cancel request. THEN they got apologetic but said that they had no control over the forum moderation. I said "bullshit!". I said that I'll get all my future Daz items from that sleazy pirate site from now on. The conversation went back and forth a couple of times with me calling them short-sighted idiots and Haseltine an overbearing asshole. My account has been deleted and I visit the place once a day using an alternative browser than disables tracking and profiling (Brave browser). I haven't seen anything I want in months so it doesn't matter to me. Their loss is RH's gain as I buy more here now.
I got some bullshit response from the sales department so I sent a cancel request. THEN they got apologetic but said that they had no control over the forum moderation. I said "bullshit!". I said that I'll get all my future Daz items from that sleazy pirate site from now on. The conversation went back and forth a couple of times with me calling them short-sighted idiots and Haseltine an overbearing asshole. My account has been deleted and I visit the place once a day using an alternative browser than disables tracking and profiling (Brave browser). I haven't seen anything I want in months so it doesn't matter to me. Their loss is RH's gain as I buy more here now.
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 36,729
Sat, Jun 14Brave
That Hassel-Fasel-CopyCat-Dassel dude is only there due to nepotism ... not due to knowledge
That Hassel-Fasel-CopyCat-Dassel dude is only there due to nepotism ... not due to knowledge
To be fair I get it.
Their forums are their petty fiefdom so their rules apply.
But it is the emotional pettiness of some the forum moderators and their refusal to allow any Critical honest discussion of the softwares features particularly on the subject of animation.
Also if you are a loyalist content hoarder
who is always jumping on the latest sales
you are given ALOT of tolerance for openly criticizing the software features.
But I noticed that when I began posting images of my own custom modeled content ,made for use in in Blender, that indicated that I was liberated from the Daz content hamster wheel
and they saw my purchased Content library suddenly become inactive
.
Well that's when any mildly critical post from me was deleted culminating in an angry email notification of the " Post approval" requirement,
in which they literally complained that I am have not been buying their content.
Their forums are their petty fiefdom so their rules apply.
But it is the emotional pettiness of some the forum moderators and their refusal to allow any Critical honest discussion of the softwares features particularly on the subject of animation.
Also if you are a loyalist content hoarder
who is always jumping on the latest sales
you are given ALOT of tolerance for openly criticizing the software features.
But I noticed that when I began posting images of my own custom modeled content ,made for use in in Blender, that indicated that I was liberated from the Daz content hamster wheel
and they saw my purchased Content library suddenly become inactive
. Well that's when any mildly critical post from me was deleted culminating in an angry email notification of the " Post approval" requirement,
in which they literally complained that I am have not been buying their content.
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I can't help myself, by thinking, that RenderHub is so much more popular, than Renderosity by now.
Think about it, there used to be a time, when Renderosity has even been more important, than DAZ3d.
Think about it, there used to be a time, when Renderosity has even been more important, than DAZ3d.
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ArtbyMel
Karma: 10,734
Sat, Jun 21Yes, that's true. And the quality of the artwork during that time was incredible!
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 36,729
Sat, Jun 21@Masterstroke and ArtbyMel:
.... but the times they are a changin
(Bob Dylan already knew that)
.... but the times they are a changin
(Bob Dylan already knew that)
What has to be remembered is, the websites just showcase the art. Useless, with the users.
It is the artists that bring both the talent and the artistry. Piss them off, and they'll find another site.
It is the artists that bring both the talent and the artistry. Piss them off, and they'll find another site.
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Tenserknot
Karma: 7,291
Sun, Jun 22And this thread is mostly ragging on renderosity, but it applies to the moronic decision at daz3d too..
TZO3k1
Karma: 796
Mon, Jun 23Yes, indeed, as an artist, I could not agree more!
But still only a hobbyist at this point…
But still only a hobbyist at this point…
I'm a amateur of no particular skill, but I love the hobby. I've drifted from complicated, labor intensive work of love scenes to a lot of pinups and character reviews as there are so many good vendors here offering products unavailable elsewhere, particularly game and celebrity rips. . Hub has now surpassed Renderosity as a source and forum for me, as I too have seen Renderosity slide. I know little regarding the vendor situation beyond the obvious appearance of old guard vendors in DAZ after the raid, and have only posted a few assets for Rendo's Free Stuff.
It' up to Hub to keep their momentum., and the best way to accomplish that is keeping their vendors and users happy. Seems simple, but sometimes people tend to complicate the obvious and F things up.
Just a thought - is there a way to look up assets in your your downloads without archiving them in here? Seems a bit of a chore to keep scrolling, though I am not blessed with pulsing lobes of brilliance. Rendo and DAZ make it easy to find your stuff....
It' up to Hub to keep their momentum., and the best way to accomplish that is keeping their vendors and users happy. Seems simple, but sometimes people tend to complicate the obvious and F things up.
Just a thought - is there a way to look up assets in your your downloads without archiving them in here? Seems a bit of a chore to keep scrolling, though I am not blessed with pulsing lobes of brilliance. Rendo and DAZ make it easy to find your stuff....
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JohnnyLuck777
Karma: 4,233
Sun, Aug 10"is there a way to look up assets in your your downloads"
People have been requesting more sorting options for various parts of the website, and the admin said they plan to add them in the future. I hope to see this added to the downloads page also. For now, I just use CTRL+F to search for stuff on the page. It works pretty well.
People have been requesting more sorting options for various parts of the website, and the admin said they plan to add them in the future. I hope to see this added to the downloads page also. For now, I just use CTRL+F to search for stuff on the page. It works pretty well.
Bobb
Karma: 802
Mon, Aug 11You can never count on a site or service being there the next day, or NOT suddenly putting your purchased items or paid -for service behind a paywall. for your own survival and piece of mind I suggest the following....
1) Download whatever it is you've bought.
2)Change the name to something sensible.
3)download the picture of the item and name it the same as the item.
4)Place them in appropriate categories (architecture, clothes, stuff you bought that you don't want your family to know about).
5)If you buy a lot then it might be an idea to make duplicate archives that encompass one or more years.
!!!!! Back the entire mess up in three (3!) different places. Have one drive on your computer just for archiving then get a couple of BIG portable drives. Buying a bare hard drive and placing it in a caddy is much more reliable than a pre-packaged hard drive. Don't rely on the cloud bullshit.
Don't relay on a NAS either. If/when the controller goes bad you'll be faced with an expensive recovery.....ask me about THAT one.
Have a backup schedule and stick to it. Putting one drive in a safety deposit box is NOT overdoing it. You've paid a lot of money over the years for all that content, treat it like stock options.
1) Download whatever it is you've bought.
2)Change the name to something sensible.
3)download the picture of the item and name it the same as the item.
4)Place them in appropriate categories (architecture, clothes, stuff you bought that you don't want your family to know about).
5)If you buy a lot then it might be an idea to make duplicate archives that encompass one or more years.
!!!!! Back the entire mess up in three (3!) different places. Have one drive on your computer just for archiving then get a couple of BIG portable drives. Buying a bare hard drive and placing it in a caddy is much more reliable than a pre-packaged hard drive. Don't rely on the cloud bullshit.
Don't relay on a NAS either. If/when the controller goes bad you'll be faced with an expensive recovery.....ask me about THAT one.
Have a backup schedule and stick to it. Putting one drive in a safety deposit box is NOT overdoing it. You've paid a lot of money over the years for all that content, treat it like stock options.
Eltuco
Karma: 10,604
Mon, Aug 11Your dl and filing procedures pretty much mirror mine Bobb - though a lot of stuff on DAZ id still in My DAZ library. I keep most assets in my own system in a storage drive, So many categories for props and environments!
guy91600
Karma: 12,988
Mon, Aug 11The backup tips recommended by Bobb are those used by serious companies. 2 copies of full data backups in 2 different locations once a month, and a daily incremental backup, preferably done remotely.
I use Renderosity mainly as a store... Since Daz is trying to kill G8, there's still the place to go for new quality G8 clothes (even after Daz's "Great Poaching" last year -- the best artists like Rhiannon, LilFlame, Sveva, Rainbow Light, Shana's Soulmate, etc., still sell their G8 clothes there). But their galleries are mostly for the "old guard" poser users...
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