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GLBWhat do you expect from 3D clothing for DAZ?
510Thread Activity
dirtrider00Wed, Oct 22
Pushee-RiTue, Oct 21
dirtrider00Tue, Oct 21
Pushee-RiTue, Oct 21
Pushee-RiTue, Oct 21
dirtrider00Mon, Oct 20
DeeceyMon, Oct 20
mrtauredMon, Oct 20
guy91600Mon, Oct 20
Pushee-RiMon, Oct 20
My last thread (Are DAZ originals really always better? ) got me thinking. Am I (and my beloved extreme poses) perhaps too demanding when it comes to 3D clothing? On the other hand, should DAZ 3D clothing only be used (and be usable) for B3 (Basic, Bad and Boring) poses?
Over the years, I have browsed through numerous forums and summarized the wishes of (potential) customers/users into a kind of average (this does not apply to the cool people here on Renderhub, of course):
* dForce must always be in play
* Details, clothing applications, and other embellishments must be present (or at least real 3D hems)
* The 3D clothing should behave realistically
I'll tell you now - some of the points cannot be combined for DAZ (except perhaps for B3 poses) ... but more on that maybe later in this thread.
So, what requirements/expectations do you have for 3D clothing for DAZ? When (if ever) are you satisfied?
Over the years, I have browsed through numerous forums and summarized the wishes of (potential) customers/users into a kind of average (this does not apply to the cool people here on Renderhub, of course):
* dForce must always be in play
* Details, clothing applications, and other embellishments must be present (or at least real 3D hems)
* The 3D clothing should behave realistically
I'll tell you now - some of the points cannot be combined for DAZ (except perhaps for B3 poses) ... but more on that maybe later in this thread.
So, what requirements/expectations do you have for 3D clothing for DAZ? When (if ever) are you satisfied?
! REPORT
Beautiful MisfitsSun, Aug 10
Account Closed
As long as the clothing is almost natural in its movements, I'm fine. It can be dforce, but it's not necessary.
Some nice details should be, otherwise all would become 08/15, the same boring lookalike.
Most important for me, what I'm looking for in outfits, wearable on a daily base, what a woman or a man would wear in real life.
All that skimpy wear we get offered since the beginning of 3d, unrealistic like hell.
Fantasy outfits, even that marked should be overfilled by now.
Ok, that is me, for people doing fantasy, they would call me stupid
I'm satisfied, when a dforce act as supposed to, when it don't explode (even if the results can look fantastic for other kind of renders *lol*)
When there aren't extreme poke-through (small spots aren't a problem) when the mesh is well done and the shirt or dress doesn't show any nipple, where none are, or other body forms, that don't exist on the model I'm using.
Some nice details should be, otherwise all would become 08/15, the same boring lookalike.
Most important for me, what I'm looking for in outfits, wearable on a daily base, what a woman or a man would wear in real life.
All that skimpy wear we get offered since the beginning of 3d, unrealistic like hell.
Fantasy outfits, even that marked should be overfilled by now.
Ok, that is me, for people doing fantasy, they would call me stupid
I'm satisfied, when a dforce act as supposed to, when it don't explode (even if the results can look fantastic for other kind of renders *lol*)
When there aren't extreme poke-through (small spots aren't a problem) when the mesh is well done and the shirt or dress doesn't show any nipple, where none are, or other body forms, that don't exist on the model I'm using.
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Aug 10" Some nice details should be, otherwise all would become 08/15, the same boring lookalike. "
Could it just be a nice pattern or, in the case of T-shirts, an interesting " printed on " image?
Could it just be a nice pattern or, in the case of T-shirts, an interesting " printed on " image?
Beautiful Misfits
Account Closed
Sun, Aug 10Those I can do myself, textures/materials are easy to change.
Buttons, zipper, pockets and embellishment, all the stuff I can't create
Buttons, zipper, pockets and embellishment, all the stuff I can't create
guy91600
Karma: 14,037
Sun, Aug 10For the buttons, do you want real 3D buttons or just a simulation with a piece of fabric that allows you to simulate the button and change its shape?
For the zipper, do you prefer a closed zipper and an open zipper version, or intermediate morphs?
For the pockets, should you have closed pockets or slightly open ones, or even a morph so that Genesis can slide his hand through them, for example?
For the zipper, do you prefer a closed zipper and an open zipper version, or intermediate morphs?
For the pockets, should you have closed pockets or slightly open ones, or even a morph so that Genesis can slide his hand through them, for example?
Beautiful Misfits
Account Closed
Sun, Aug 10I'm far away of being such experienced cloth user.
If I use a jeans with morph pockets, you can bet, it would end in a disaster *lol*
Just the button/zipper and embellishment are there, not as pattern, but as in "could be really used" is good enough for me.
If I use a jeans with morph pockets, you can bet, it would end in a disaster *lol*
Just the button/zipper and embellishment are there, not as pattern, but as in "could be really used" is good enough for me.
@Pushee-Ri
Thanks for asking this question
I'm certainly interested in the answers, since I'm trying to create clothing whose textures (square or rectangular) are easy and quick to change without using any tools.
Thanks for asking this question
I'm certainly interested in the answers, since I'm trying to create clothing whose textures (square or rectangular) are easy and quick to change without using any tools.
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For non-dForce, I expect, at least for G9, that it conforms to the base G9 figure without odd weights such as around the breast. Obviously I am biased because the characters I make have very little focus around that area, and it is a pain when I find perfect clothing that comes with "fake boobs."
For dForce, I would love for the clothing to include, without me using different tools, the ability to adjust different parts of the body independently and that those morph weights are not static, meaning, once I simulate, they will conform to the underlying shape. Obviously the fewer explosions the better and the more geometry the better as well, especially for clothing that is very close to the figure shape because subdivisions not always work the way it should with all clothing topology.
For dForce, I would love for the clothing to include, without me using different tools, the ability to adjust different parts of the body independently and that those morph weights are not static, meaning, once I simulate, they will conform to the underlying shape. Obviously the fewer explosions the better and the more geometry the better as well, especially for clothing that is very close to the figure shape because subdivisions not always work the way it should with all clothing topology.
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Aug 10" when I find perfect clothing that comes with "fake boobs."
G9 is really bad when it comes to tops. I haven't even managed to make a tube dress yet.
That's why I only make bottoms for G9... or GeoShells
G9 is really bad when it comes to tops. I haven't even managed to make a tube dress yet.
That's why I only make bottoms for G9... or GeoShells
You should get Marvelous designer, it is a true cloth simulator.
D-force is the idiot third cousin imitation.
D-force is the idiot third cousin imitation.
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Beautiful Misfits
Account Closed
Sun, Aug 10MD is fantastic, only 2 big "buts" for me.
Subscription based is robbery and that day, my paid for ever version is running again, that'll be the day.
And the next but, I can't get any environment or furniture into it for that kind of render I like to create.
Subscription based is robbery and that day, my paid for ever version is running again, that'll be the day.
And the next but, I can't get any environment or furniture into it for that kind of render I like to create.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Aug 10When I tried MD—three times with three different accounts 
—there was always (!) one thing that was really annoying: the mix of tris and quads. Sure, there's a workaround for that... but it's shitty times three (for me
—there was always (!) one thing that was really annoying: the mix of tris and quads. Sure, there's a workaround for that... but it's shitty times three (for me Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Aug 10Oops—I forgot to mention: MD is a program for creating clothing—dForce is just DAZ's shitty version of good fabric simulations (so it's not really a fair comparison).
Beautiful Misfits
Account Closed
Sun, Aug 10A mix of tris and quads?
Nope, it's on you, if you choose tris, you will get them, you just have to make sure, if you make a several piece outfit to check for every piece
Tris are perfect for Poser cloth, Studio works better with quads.
Nope, it's on you, if you choose tris, you will get them, you just have to make sure, if you make a several piece outfit to check for every piece
Tris are perfect for Poser cloth, Studio works better with quads.
thirdeyezennicai
Karma: 13,833
Sun, Aug 10I've always wanted to get into MD so I can make alternative clothing and actual streetwear stuff.
not to mention with proper simulation
not to mention with proper simulation
SnarlTheWerewolf
Karma: 2,741
Mon, Aug 11As someone who makes clothes in MD, it's a mixed bag once you take it out of MD. To export clothing you have to change some of the parameters for it to export correctly and welded, otherwise you end up with a piece of clothing that falls apart when simulated.
I would still rather make clothes in MD then in Blender, but it's got its downside once it leaves MD.
I would still rather make clothes in MD then in Blender, but it's got its downside once it leaves MD.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Mon, Aug 11Hi Snarl, thanks for the insight
Quick question (since no one understands me): do the newer MD versions still do that nonsense with the tris? So—quads selected and then still tris at the edges?
Quick question (since no one understands me): do the newer MD versions still do that nonsense with the tris? So—quads selected and then still tris at the edges?
SnarlTheWerewolf
Karma: 2,741
Mon, Aug 11I did not switch over to subscription. I have a copy of 9 and a copy of 12 (The last version before it went subscription). However, I end up with 12 crashing a lot so I tend to default back to 9. I say this to say I can't guarantee this is still true with new MD. What I normally do is just select the pieces of clothing and then right click on the main screen where the avatar is and then select "quadrangulate" and that turns it back to all quads. Granted, sometimes if the article of clothing piece is too oddly shaped it may want to mix them up. I usually just lower the particle distance to increase the mesh polys for that piece and that will usually let me quadrangulate it back to quads.
Realism, in the clothing, movement and materials. I kit bash most of the clothing items I own. Old Victoria 4 clothing has geometry to work with other software, and I find that a big plus. Sadly, Daz needs to have it exported to work nice with others.
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I expect clothing to at least fit the base figure with no poke-through. And it better have some morph dials so it looks good on other characters. I want clothing to come with a few texture options, and add-on packs for even more texture options are a plus. If it's a dForce garment, it should simulate quickly, and it better not explode in basic poses.
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I never, ever, EVER want to buy a 3D garment again whose mesh looks like this (DAZ Shop):
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Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,250
Mon, Aug 11Feels like the author of the mesh did a non-planar split before exporting, and messed up an otherwise perfectly functional quad strip. He could have added more polygons with multires to make the normal happier if that's why he did that.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Mon, Aug 11If this were a stand-alone 3D object floating in free space without a model and not posed, I would agree with you.
But it's not
Due to the crazy mesh, it is not possible to use it even for poses that are not particularly exaggerated... and who wants to render images in the A-pose only?
But it's not
Due to the crazy mesh, it is not possible to use it even for poses that are not particularly exaggerated... and who wants to render images in the A-pose only?
Deecey
Karma: 198
Sun, Oct 19Those weird triangles are always a result of using the Quad (Grid) Mesh type in Marvelous Designer. You won't get that if you use Quad (Optimized).
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Oct 19@Deecey:
You're right! I just wonder why such a poor-quality 3D object made it into the shop (DAZ) in the first place??? Especially since it fails even with simpler poses (take a close look at the back, where the hem/belt of the pants ends):
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/35741/i-must-confess
You're right! I just wonder why such a poor-quality 3D object made it into the shop (DAZ) in the first place??? Especially since it fails even with simpler poses (take a close look at the back, where the hem/belt of the pants ends):
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/35741/i-must-confess
Deecey
Karma: 198
Mon, Oct 20It looks to me like it's meant to be simulated, but the render you show appears to just be used as conforming. I might be wrong though.
Still, I find that the quad grid mesh needs a lot of editing afterward, or even retopology, to work better.
Still, I find that the quad grid mesh needs a lot of editing afterward, or even retopology, to work better.
I NEVER EVER want to buy another 3D garment with integrated folds and draping that may look good in the A/T pose... but whose folds no longer make sense when I use a different pose (sitting, lying down, or whatever other basic poses DAZ offers).
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Mon, Aug 11Hmm - I'm in a bit of a hurry ... and my brain is already where I want to be soon.
... So I have to ask: do you mean poses that are made just for this one item of clothing... or lots of different variations of one item of clothing for different poses?
Hmm... I think the producers would quickly reach for their torches and pitchforks
... So I have to ask: do you mean poses that are made just for this one item of clothing... or lots of different variations of one item of clothing for different poses?
Hmm... I think the producers would quickly reach for their torches and pitchforks
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Mon, Aug 11@MKDAWUSS
Me buying poses from others??? Ihhhhhhh
Haha—maybe you know my poses (not that I think they're better than others)... but I do have different tastes
Nevertheless, if we turn your suggestion on its head, it would be an idea that we shouldn't keep from other producers:
I used to do this during my SLIPABLE phase. It was a different approach, but it's easy to port: 3D clothing (1 item) for 3 basic positions: standing, sitting, and lying down. This sounds like more work than it is, as you perform three different simulations based on the basic garment to achieve the required draping.
I used Blender back then—first a cloth simulation of the base garment and then fine-tuned it with sculpting. It's no big deal and doesn't involve much more work.
Perhaps this is an idea for other producers?
Me buying poses from others??? Ihhhhhhh
Haha—maybe you know my poses (not that I think they're better than others)... but I do have different tastes
Nevertheless, if we turn your suggestion on its head, it would be an idea that we shouldn't keep from other producers:
I used to do this during my SLIPABLE phase. It was a different approach, but it's easy to port: 3D clothing (1 item) for 3 basic positions: standing, sitting, and lying down. This sounds like more work than it is, as you perform three different simulations based on the basic garment to achieve the required draping.
I used Blender back then—first a cloth simulation of the base garment and then fine-tuned it with sculpting. It's no big deal and doesn't involve much more work.
Perhaps this is an idea for other producers?
What I would like - even though this isn't a wish list... but who knows who might be reading this - is finally, finally, finally some loose-fitting everyday clothing. And by loose, I really mean loose - like a kind of Muumuu, but only T-shirt length. Unfortunately, this is hardly possible with the DAZ rigging system - especially if it has to fit all conceivable poses.
But we can still dream, can't we?
But we can still dream, can't we?
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guy91600
Karma: 14,037
Mon, Aug 11"But we can still dream, can't we?"
Yes, of course we can dream, but this time it's in 4D!
Yes, of course we can dream, but this time it's in 4D!
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Mon, Aug 11In 4D (time?) or in combinations of different media
At the moment, I'm thinking about a combination of shell and 3D objects that, when put together, form the garment. The problem with this is that even if it works, there will still be very few people interested in it because it's off-mainstream and can't be applied with a single click.
At the moment, I'm thinking about a combination of shell and 3D objects that, when put together, form the garment. The problem with this is that even if it works, there will still be very few people interested in it because it's off-mainstream and can't be applied with a single click.
Deecey
Karma: 198
Mon, Aug 11>>>
Pushee-Ri1 Hour ago Karma: 31,312
What I would like - even though this isn't a wish list... but who knows who might be reading this - is finally, finally, finally some loose-fitting everyday clothing. And by loose, I really mean loose - like a kind of Muumuu, but only T-shirt length. Unfortunately, this is hardly possible with the DAZ rigging system - especially if it has to fit all conceivable poses.
That would seem to be a logical choice for dynamic clothing.
Pushee-Ri1 Hour ago Karma: 31,312
What I would like - even though this isn't a wish list... but who knows who might be reading this - is finally, finally, finally some loose-fitting everyday clothing. And by loose, I really mean loose - like a kind of Muumuu, but only T-shirt length. Unfortunately, this is hardly possible with the DAZ rigging system - especially if it has to fit all conceivable poses.
That would seem to be a logical choice for dynamic clothing.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Mon, Aug 11@Deecey:
dForce? You're right!
The only problem is keeping the clothing as simple as possible so that it works... and most users don't want simple/very simple clothing.
https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/dmc-slipping-t-shirt-2-for-g8f
dForce? You're right!
The only problem is keeping the clothing as simple as possible so that it works... and most users don't want simple/very simple clothing.
https://www.renderhub.com/pushee-ri/dmc-slipping-t-shirt-2-for-g8f
Right after I showed my Slipable T-Shirt to Deecey (see above), my brain started rattling.
What if the morphs weren't (or weren't only) for slipping, but there were also a few morphs for draping? By that I mean expanding certain regions to allow dForce to drape. With my slipables, I should mention that it's the other way around than usual: first come the morphs, then the simulation.
What do you think: could this work... and what expectations would you have in terms of style and appearance, for example, of a loose-fitting T-shirt?
What if the morphs weren't (or weren't only) for slipping, but there were also a few morphs for draping? By that I mean expanding certain regions to allow dForce to drape. With my slipables, I should mention that it's the other way around than usual: first come the morphs, then the simulation.
What do you think: could this work... and what expectations would you have in terms of style and appearance, for example, of a loose-fitting T-shirt?
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Does anyone know where dForce came from? Did Daz programmers write it, or is it something they bought?
I'm asking because it's my understanding from a forum post somewhere else, a while back, that the draping engine used in MD is a free and open source algorithm developed by a university somewhere for use in physics simulations. The article mentioned that Blender would be incorporating it in an upcoming release.
I'm asking because it's my understanding from a forum post somewhere else, a while back, that the draping engine used in MD is a free and open source algorithm developed by a university somewhere for use in physics simulations. The article mentioned that Blender would be incorporating it in an upcoming release.
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Tue, Aug 12I don't know anything specific, but when I compare DAZ dForce with Blender Cloth Simulation, there are significant shortcomings with DAZ.
This suggests - from my point of view - that DAZ either hacked together its own system or messed up an existing system.
This suggests - from my point of view - that DAZ either hacked together its own system or messed up an existing system.
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,250
Tue, Aug 12I think is proprietary, although a lot of companies buy tech from others and re-brand it, who knows.
The one thing to note is that, when it was introduced: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203081/dforce-start-here?srsltid=AfmBOoqVwyJ3UyZbqdnV7CayxYZfqlNyDytMI7t_KiWpwtFjH9d_sRmb
They said "Over time the dForce engine will continue to evolve and become capable of even more" but it seems to have remained in the realm of wishful thinking.
The one thing to note is that, when it was introduced: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203081/dforce-start-here?srsltid=AfmBOoqVwyJ3UyZbqdnV7CayxYZfqlNyDytMI7t_KiWpwtFjH9d_sRmb
They said "Over time the dForce engine will continue to evolve and become capable of even more" but it seems to have remained in the realm of wishful thinking.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Tue, Aug 12@Luxe:
" ... but it seems to have remained in the realm of wishful thinking."
Nope - DAZ has definitely improved the explosions
" ... but it seems to have remained in the realm of wishful thinking."
Nope - DAZ has definitely improved the explosions
Bobb
Karma: 1,018
Tue, Aug 12I know that they've shed programmers over the past few years and we can assume that the few who remain (using AI of course) are concentrating on Premiere and the paywall. Studio won't get any better but now you'll have to pay for stuff that doesn't work
Does it really always have to be dForce? And if dForce is installed, shouldn't the garment be simulated accordingly?
I currently have a knee-length dress in front of me that is flared at the bottom (with dForce, of course, because everyone wants that). Unfortunately, it seems that the dress was once again only tested in the A pose. The simulation shows that the lower hem was left out (dForce Weightmap). This means that even when the model bends to the side, nothing happens at the lower hem.
It's crap!!!
What do you thinkshould I maybe start a new thread just for CCs/producers of DAZ clothing, where we could discuss techniques or even find new approaches... also (but not only) in relation to dForce?
I currently have a knee-length dress in front of me that is flared at the bottom (with dForce, of course, because everyone wants that). Unfortunately, it seems that the dress was once again only tested in the A pose. The simulation shows that the lower hem was left out (dForce Weightmap). This means that even when the model bends to the side, nothing happens at the lower hem.
It's crap!!!
What do you thinkshould I maybe start a new thread just for CCs/producers of DAZ clothing, where we could discuss techniques or even find new approaches... also (but not only) in relation to dForce?
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Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,250
Thu, Aug 14For this shot: 
I wanted to use an oversized long-sleeved shirt that came with the rest of her clothing set (different from the one I ended up using). But the shirt would explode around where her hands almost touch, and if you look at that picture, her wrists do not come that close to cause the explosion.
I wanted to use an oversized long-sleeved shirt that came with the rest of her clothing set (different from the one I ended up using). But the shirt would explode around where her hands almost touch, and if you look at that picture, her wrists do not come that close to cause the explosion.Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,250
Thu, Aug 14I'd join your new thread, venting from time to time cleans the soul 
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Thu, Aug 14@Luxe:
Your picture:
Hmm - it looks like a very complex mesh. In this case, explosions are practically inevitable. At least, that's my experience.
-----------
I agree with you 120%: sometimes it's good for the soul (but also for the nerves) to let off steam. However, the planned thread should not just consist of steam, hot air, and whining, but should also be a place to discuss ideas and approaches and to find (maybe) new ways for dealing with DAZ (dforce) clothes. Let's see...
Your picture:
Hmm - it looks like a very complex mesh. In this case, explosions are practically inevitable. At least, that's my experience.
-----------
I agree with you 120%: sometimes it's good for the soul (but also for the nerves) to let off steam. However, the planned thread should not just consist of steam, hot air, and whining, but should also be a place to discuss ideas and approaches and to find (maybe) new ways for dealing with DAZ (dforce) clothes. Let's see...
Luxe Muse
Karma: 5,250
Fri, Aug 15It was this shirt: 
Now I don't want to give the author a bad rep, he makes wonderful clothing! But I think he was just trying to get it out and didn't test it in more than some standing basic positions.
Now I don't want to give the author a bad rep, he makes wonderful clothing! But I think he was just trying to get it out and didn't test it in more than some standing basic positions.Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Fri, Aug 15Wow – looks pretty good ... but also pretty complicated (the network) - and that's exactly where (in my experience) the mistake lies when it comes to dForce. If too many vertices have to be calculated during simulation and these are close together in some places from the beginning, the risk of dForce explosions increases rapidly.
And if the simulation settings (material presets) are not quite right and a few tris and ngons are added to the mesh, it can become quite annoying.
And if the simulation settings (material presets) are not quite right and a few tris and ngons are added to the mesh, it can become quite annoying.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Fri, Aug 15@Luxe:
The Thread is online:
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/13560/for-ccs-daz-clothes-and-dforce-approaches-ideas-and-more
The Thread is online:
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/13560/for-ccs-daz-clothes-and-dforce-approaches-ideas-and-more
For DAZ Studio, I don't expect much. Maybe fit the model it's made for? Good textures? Good topology? Pretty much what everyone should expect.
If you're expecting clothing that behaves as it does in the real world, Studio is not where you should look. You should be looking to Marvelous Designer and game engines. Blender is OK at it but you're gonna need some addons for it to come close.
D-Force is absolute garbage when it comes to sims. Studio had another option that was even more janky, it got the heave-ho when it dragged in the shiny "new" Iray engine. It's understandable that the developer would want to offload some of the computations to a GPU, since Studio is rather CPU-hungry on its own, but...... Well, just try out the GPU sim option in Marvelous. It's not 3.6 Roentgen, it's 15,000. So if you want good real-world cloth sims, you're gonna have to git gud at rigging in game engines, or learn Marvelous. And I still believe that if I'm ever going to get back around to clothing design, I'm going to stay in Marvelous. Cause if I want clothing to drape at all, Studio isn't going to cut the mustard. Even AI does it better.
If you're expecting clothing that behaves as it does in the real world, Studio is not where you should look. You should be looking to Marvelous Designer and game engines. Blender is OK at it but you're gonna need some addons for it to come close.
D-Force is absolute garbage when it comes to sims. Studio had another option that was even more janky, it got the heave-ho when it dragged in the shiny "new" Iray engine. It's understandable that the developer would want to offload some of the computations to a GPU, since Studio is rather CPU-hungry on its own, but...... Well, just try out the GPU sim option in Marvelous. It's not 3.6 Roentgen, it's 15,000. So if you want good real-world cloth sims, you're gonna have to git gud at rigging in game engines, or learn Marvelous. And I still believe that if I'm ever going to get back around to clothing design, I'm going to stay in Marvelous. Cause if I want clothing to drape at all, Studio isn't going to cut the mustard. Even AI does it better.
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I think thread like this benefit most from lots of pictures showing the issues.
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Aug 24You're right
Here's an old picture with the shorts from above. So it doesn't become a search image: open it in a new tab and take a look at what that horror thing is doing on the back
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/35741/i-must-confess
Here's an old picture with the shorts from above. So it doesn't become a search image: open it in a new tab and take a look at what that horror thing is doing on the back
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/35741/i-must-confess
I'm digging up this older thread again because I'm slowly starting to wonder if I'm still on the right track (or ever was) ...
I have recently purchased several pairs of 3D pants from different sources for my models and not a single one (!!!) can do poses that are even slightly outside the mainstream. And I don't mean my rather unusual knotted poses (which don't require clothing), but what I consider to be normal poses, such as sitting cross-legged.
There are no real errors such as poke-throughs, but no pants (not even with dForce) behave normally in the sitting position described, for example. It's more like the pants are made of corrugated cardboard or plywood.
So now I'm wondering whether I've been barking up the wrong tree all this time. It was always clear to me that 3D clothing should behave as realistically as possible - and at the same time be suitable for a wide variety of poses (and not just boring " my model is a clothes rack " stuff). But I seem to be wrong after all, these plywood or corrugated cardboard 3D pants seem to be selling well to very well, according to the ratings.
That means (for me): hardly anyone values 3D clothing that allows them to strike poses that are a little different from the same old boring " I'm a walking stockfish " look.
Am I right about that?
I have recently purchased several pairs of 3D pants from different sources for my models and not a single one (!!!) can do poses that are even slightly outside the mainstream. And I don't mean my rather unusual knotted poses (which don't require clothing), but what I consider to be normal poses, such as sitting cross-legged.
There are no real errors such as poke-throughs, but no pants (not even with dForce) behave normally in the sitting position described, for example. It's more like the pants are made of corrugated cardboard or plywood.
So now I'm wondering whether I've been barking up the wrong tree all this time. It was always clear to me that 3D clothing should behave as realistically as possible - and at the same time be suitable for a wide variety of poses (and not just boring " my model is a clothes rack " stuff). But I seem to be wrong after all, these plywood or corrugated cardboard 3D pants seem to be selling well to very well, according to the ratings.
That means (for me): hardly anyone values 3D clothing that allows them to strike poses that are a little different from the same old boring " I'm a walking stockfish " look.
Am I right about that?
REPLY
! REPORT
guy91600
Karma: 14,037
Sun, Oct 19As you may know, I make some dynamic clothing, yes, the ancestor of dForce developed by Optiplex.
I just had the crazy idea of adding the dForce property to a dynamic clothing item. A pleasant surprise: both work on the same garment. You can therefore use either simulation option or one after the other.
I just had the crazy idea of adding the dForce property to a dynamic clothing item. A pleasant surprise: both work on the same garment. You can therefore use either simulation option or one after the other.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Oct 19Yep - I've seen and enjoyed your experiments and products. Thank you very much for that
guy91600
Karma: 14,037
Mon, Oct 20I did a slightly more in-depth test, and using both one after the other on Genesis while paused can improve the results a bit or produce a surprising result
But using the dynamic function on a pose with vertical movement and then using dForce produces disastrous results!
Ultimately, this brilliant idea doesn't combine the best of both simulations, but rather creates a disaster!
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J'ai fait un test un peu plus approfondi, utiliser les 2 l'un après l'autre sur Genesis en pause A peu améliorer le résultat ou donner un résultat surprenant
Mais utiliser la fonction dynamic sur une pose avec un déplacement vertical et ensuite utiliser dForce donne un résultat désastreux!
Finalement cette idée géniale ne combine pas le meilleur des deux simulations mais génère une catastrophe!
But using the dynamic function on a pose with vertical movement and then using dForce produces disastrous results!
Ultimately, this brilliant idea doesn't combine the best of both simulations, but rather creates a disaster!
-----------
J'ai fait un test un peu plus approfondi, utiliser les 2 l'un après l'autre sur Genesis en pause A peu améliorer le résultat ou donner un résultat surprenant
Mais utiliser la fonction dynamic sur une pose avec un déplacement vertical et ensuite utiliser dForce donne un résultat désastreux!
Finalement cette idée géniale ne combine pas le meilleur des deux simulations mais génère une catastrophe!
For me , i like to be able to change evrything . Use shader on all parts of the clothing . And be able to change zip colours also , so many clothes come with just the standard lead looking colour ( to me any way ) I like to use gold silver , rose gold . The buttons being 3d would help , But not giant chunky things .
Even if you only own a few garments , Its so much better to change the textures , Geoshells , shaders , extra textures These all improve what you have by 100%.
Dforce is not necessary , but aslong as the item has a bit of drape and you can bend a few parts , if you have longer parts on them then that helps.
Also as Beautiful Misfits says normal everyday clothes would be great! There's only so many pictures you can make with slutty trampy things.
Oh and one thing ive found so hard to locate , Robes for other cultures , not rags but proper robes , For people from hot dust climates . But thats just me.
Even if you only own a few garments , Its so much better to change the textures , Geoshells , shaders , extra textures These all improve what you have by 100%.
Dforce is not necessary , but aslong as the item has a bit of drape and you can bend a few parts , if you have longer parts on them then that helps.
Also as Beautiful Misfits says normal everyday clothes would be great! There's only so many pictures you can make with slutty trampy things.
Oh and one thing ive found so hard to locate , Robes for other cultures , not rags but proper robes , For people from hot dust climates . But thats just me.
REPLY
! REPORT
In terms of the 3 pair of pants you bought, it may just be the dforce settings themselves that are the problem if your not getting the look your expecting. I just did a quickie of Romars anime school uniform for G8M and it looks pretty good to me in terms of natural. At least a lot more natural than anything I could achieve with out dforce.
Overall, I've bought a lot of dforce clothing that the draping didn't feel right and ended up buying some premade dforce material settings from Birthstone over at Daz. ( dforce settings in the surface tabs gives me a headache).
Overall, I've bought a lot of dforce clothing that the draping didn't feel right and ended up buying some premade dforce material settings from Birthstone over at Daz. ( dforce settings in the surface tabs gives me a headache).
REPLY
! REPORT
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Oct 19That looks about 1034 times better than what I would have in front of me in the same pose
So it seems that there are a few producers who test their clothing in poses other than the eternally boring upright pose.
Thanks for pointing that out
So it seems that there are a few producers who test their clothing in poses other than the eternally boring upright pose.
Thanks for pointing that out
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,812
Mon, Oct 20No problem. Yeah, Romarov's stuff is one of those hidden gem vendors I've found that makes some really amazing items. Has some stuff here but think most of it is over at Renderosity.
I basically use dforce and while I think most vendors get the settings in the sweet zone, there are those that , I'll just say feel off.
I know I've really been playing around in the surface tab settings trying to figure out things the last year or so but the dforce settings are beyond me at this point. I'd need a Dforce 101 for Dummies manual to make even the basic sense out of the settings.
I basically use dforce and while I think most vendors get the settings in the sweet zone, there are those that , I'll just say feel off.
I know I've really been playing around in the surface tab settings trying to figure out things the last year or so but the dforce settings are beyond me at this point. I'd need a Dforce 101 for Dummies manual to make even the basic sense out of the settings.
guy91600
Karma: 14,037
Mon, Oct 20Try dynamic clothing, there are two free ones available:
https://www.renderhub.com/dorothee237/dynamic-two-ruffle-skirt-for-g8f
https://www.renderhub.com/guy91600/dynamic-ballet-dress-for-g8f
It's an older technology that serves the same purpose as dForce.
https://www.renderhub.com/dorothee237/dynamic-two-ruffle-skirt-for-g8f
https://www.renderhub.com/guy91600/dynamic-ballet-dress-for-g8f
It's an older technology that serves the same purpose as dForce.
mrtauredSun, Oct 19
Account Closed
The person that masters fixing the under Boob on a genesis female upper wear with a click or dial deserves a noble prize.
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Sun, Oct 19That's why I " invented " SGM
Problem:
SGMs are model-based, which means there is no universal solution to the problem, as each producer treats the model's breasts differently, resulting in different overlaps (which is what this is all about!). I tried to explain this in this thread (last entry):
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/13925/creating-sgm-or-whatever-you-want-to-call-the-morphs
This means that either the model producers build something like this directly into their model, or there are third parties that make add-ons.
Problem:
SGMs are model-based, which means there is no universal solution to the problem, as each producer treats the model's breasts differently, resulting in different overlaps (which is what this is all about!). I tried to explain this in this thread (last entry):
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/13925/creating-sgm-or-whatever-you-want-to-call-the-morphs
This means that either the model producers build something like this directly into their model, or there are third parties that make add-ons.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,812
Mon, Oct 20I'll honestly never understand the dforce settings. I found and bought this awhile back:
https://www.daz3d.com/bs-dforce-cloth-simulation-shaders
Its been a godsend for me in fixing the big underboob problem or basically any other problem I've had with Dforce.
https://www.daz3d.com/bs-dforce-cloth-simulation-shaders
Its been a godsend for me in fixing the big underboob problem or basically any other problem I've had with Dforce.
mrtaured
Account Closed
Mon, Oct 20Thats awesome. I might need this then.
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,812
Mon, Oct 20Haha, yeah, if you use dforce a lot its a godsend. Works just like adding shaders to a outfit. Go into the surface tab, select the material zone, then click on the setting you want to use. Might take a couple tries to get it right but I've always been able to get rid of the oversized boob draping problem on all the dforce tops I've tried it on.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Tue, Oct 21@dirtrider00
Just out of curiosity (and because I like to experiment): would the set be able to make the clothing fall normally on one of the bikdingle models - i.e., without the clothing-eating mammary glands? And would that be possible using only the dForce material settings? That would be awesome (and I wouldn't have to keep building SGMs
I just took another look at the linked product: the dForce technology makes sense... but I still don't understand the effect it has on the mammary glands mentioned...
Just out of curiosity (and because I like to experiment): would the set be able to make the clothing fall normally on one of the bikdingle models - i.e., without the clothing-eating mammary glands? And would that be possible using only the dForce material settings? That would be awesome (and I wouldn't have to keep building SGMs
I just took another look at the linked product: the dForce technology makes sense... but I still don't understand the effect it has on the mammary glands mentioned...
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,812
Tue, Oct 21Haha, have a few of Bikdingle's leaner athletic shapes but none of his typical oversized mellon shapes. So to hopefully answer your question, yes and no.
I loaded a standard G8 and dialed Breast large to 100%. I'd say everything I tried I was able to make it look natural or very close to it though I didn't come close to trying all the settings.
Then with Breast large still dialed in at 100%, I dialed in Breast implant at 100%. First off why? but for experimentation purposes I gave it the ole college try. Bikini tops, bandau's and loose fittings halters I was able to make them look better than the base dforce settings. Where I started having problems was with the midriff style and regular tshirts. Basically any full bodied top. I did have some good results with the halter style evening dresses with the open areas around the cleavage area.
Overall, I'd say Breast large and down, your good to go, past that, its going to be hit and miss depending on the clothing, at least for this product. The good thing overall, I was watching what settings were changing during this and might have learned just a bit.
So to hopefully answer your question, yes and no. I loaded a standard G8 and dialed Breast large to 100%. I'd say everything I tried I was able to make it look natural or very close to it though I didn't come close to trying all the settings.
Then with Breast large still dialed in at 100%, I dialed in Breast implant at 100%. First off why?
but for experimentation purposes I gave it the ole college try. Bikini tops, bandau's and loose fittings halters I was able to make them look better than the base dforce settings. Where I started having problems was with the midriff style and regular tshirts. Basically any full bodied top. I did have some good results with the halter style evening dresses with the open areas around the cleavage area.Overall, I'd say Breast large and down, your good to go, past that, its going to be hit and miss depending on the clothing, at least for this product. The good thing overall, I was watching what settings were changing during this and might have learned just a bit.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,710
Tue, Oct 21@dirtrider00
Wow! Thank you so much for your detailed feedback and all the effort you put into your experiments
Basically, it can be said that this is a recommendable product for users who are willing to take some time and experiment with different settings until the result meets their expectations? To me, that sounds like a good alternative to SGM - especially if experimenting is fun
Thanks again - and have a great day!
Wow! Thank you so much for your detailed feedback and all the effort you put into your experiments
Basically, it can be said that this is a recommendable product for users who are willing to take some time and experiment with different settings until the result meets their expectations? To me, that sounds like a good alternative to SGM - especially if experimenting is fun
Thanks again - and have a great day!
dirtrider00
Karma: 16,812
Wed, Oct 22@pushee-ri
No problem. Actually it was a good learning experiment. Clicking on the product setting icons and being in the surface tab and seeing what actual settings were changing helped me to understand the actual settings a lot better.
I have to also say, I'm not really sure what clothing should actually look like on this type of character. I was able to get the clothing to look good on the top and in the cleavage area but the midriff always sucked up underneath the bottom of the boobage area. It looked good, but not really natural for midriff and regular tshirts.
In hindsight of this little experiment, kinda felt like I was trying to squeeze a size small tshirt onto someone that actually needed a 2XL. Maybe adding some scaling could help, or maybe, just like in real life, the clothing might need to be made custom for these types of characters.
No problem. Actually it was a good learning experiment. Clicking on the product setting icons and being in the surface tab and seeing what actual settings were changing helped me to understand the actual settings a lot better.
I have to also say, I'm not really sure what clothing should actually look like on this type of character. I was able to get the clothing to look good on the top and in the cleavage area but the midriff always sucked up underneath the bottom of the boobage area. It looked good, but not really natural for midriff and regular tshirts.
In hindsight of this little experiment, kinda felt like I was trying to squeeze a size small tshirt onto someone that actually needed a 2XL.
Maybe adding some scaling could help, or maybe, just like in real life, the clothing might need to be made custom for these types of characters.
