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GLBDAZ 3D Has Launched DAZ Premier. Thoughts?
2,568Thread Activity
COMIXIANTSat, Jan 25
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AnabranFri, Jan 24
A few weeks ago, I got one of DAZ's customer surveys, and one of the questions was about the likelihood of me signing up for a new kind of subscription service, should one ever become available. I told them "no fucking way" (or words to that effect). Tonight I logged onto the DAZ store page to see what today's new products were, and SURPRISE -- DAZ is launching DAZ Premier (along with DAZ Base and DAZ Plus), a monthly subscription service (didn't see an annual plan) that gives enhanced discounts and bonuses, one of which is an expanded version of DAZ Studio with additional tools instead of the free version everyone has access to.
I'm curious to see what everyone thinks of this.
LINK: https://www.daz3d.com/daz-premier
I'm curious to see what everyone thinks of this.
LINK: https://www.daz3d.com/daz-premier
! REPORT
Reading through it again, I noticed something I had missed the first time.
"Unlock access to exclusive Premier Only content*
*Content is active as long as Subscription is active"
So content that you will have in your account but will lose access to if your subscription lapses. Presumably, that means it's content that can't be downloaded and backed-up and/or won't run in future versions of DS (free or Premier) without an active subscription. Which also probably means that you won't be able to use the Premier version of DS and any Premier content on a machine that doesn't have an internet connection, because it won't be able to dial home to verify that subscription. I do all of my work on a machine that is cut-off from the internet, so that's a total deal-breaker for me. And it sounds awfully like some of the arguments that were raised in objection to DAZ's attempt at content encryption several years ago.
"Unlock access to exclusive Premier Only content*
*Content is active as long as Subscription is active"
So content that you will have in your account but will lose access to if your subscription lapses. Presumably, that means it's content that can't be downloaded and backed-up and/or won't run in future versions of DS (free or Premier) without an active subscription. Which also probably means that you won't be able to use the Premier version of DS and any Premier content on a machine that doesn't have an internet connection, because it won't be able to dial home to verify that subscription. I do all of my work on a machine that is cut-off from the internet, so that's a total deal-breaker for me. And it sounds awfully like some of the arguments that were raised in objection to DAZ's attempt at content encryption several years ago.
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stevenjoseph8844
Karma: 1,725
Mon, Oct 07, 2024This is stupid move.. no way I'm gonna be renting content thats for sure!!!
EleanorA
Karma: 318
Sun, Oct 20, 2024To make things more fun, if your subscription lapses, there's no guarantee that you can ever get the content back even if you resub. So if you get Aiko 9 (and putting mainline characters in this is just bullsh*t.) as a subscriber, and then have to drop the sub for even a day, you've lost that character forever.
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Sun, Oct 20, 2024Looks like DAZ is going all in this time. Last time they tried to encrypt content, they noticeably DIDN'T encrypt any of their base characters, and the take-away from that was that they didn't want to risk scaring away sales of their core content. Either they feel the situation has changed and that users will now pay for encrypted content, or it's being imposed on DAZ from on high (probably by Tafi) and they have no choice but to comply and to hope for the best.
I have about 6 months left on my Daz+ and have already decided that I'm canceling it once its over instead of continuing it with their new subscription model. Really doubt the premier only content would be anything I would actually want to use anyway considering I'm still using G8.
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I'm getting so tired of the DAZ 3D CIRCUS. And that's what it really feels like - a circus!
One sale after the other with convoluted conditions that need to be met
Buy this thing to get a discount on this thing - but only if you have this other thing in your cart
Doorbuster Deals / Premiere Sales / Lightning Deals / FastGrab Sales
"Don't Miss This Special Whatever Deal Just For You" orange banners
Special deals with looming timers counting down
Special bundles to get some special mystery items
Silly expiring token system
Season Pass: The Newest Evolution
NFTs / Non-Fungible People / Non-Fungible Pets
Daz AI Studio (WTF ???)
I'm sure I missed some - but now...
"access to exclusive Premier Only content" that is "active as long as Subscription is active"
Yeah - no thanks - hard pass. At least Daz is making it easier for me to stop giving them money.
One sale after the other with convoluted conditions that need to be met
Buy this thing to get a discount on this thing - but only if you have this other thing in your cart
Doorbuster Deals / Premiere Sales / Lightning Deals / FastGrab Sales
"Don't Miss This Special Whatever Deal Just For You" orange banners
Special deals with looming timers counting down
Special bundles to get some special mystery items
Silly expiring token system
Season Pass: The Newest Evolution
NFTs / Non-Fungible People / Non-Fungible Pets
Daz AI Studio (WTF ???)
I'm sure I missed some - but now...
"access to exclusive Premier Only content" that is "active as long as Subscription is active"
Yeah - no thanks - hard pass. At least Daz is making it easier for me to stop giving them money.
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MKDAWUSS
Karma: 49,077
Wed, Oct 09, 2024And the classic: "If you bought something yesterday, you get an even bigger discount today!"
The later in the month, the bigger the discount.
The later in the month, the bigger the discount.
darkart1
Karma: 1,140
Sat, Oct 12, 2024Yeah - it is kind of crazy how they train people to WAIT to make a purchase. And they have fully trained people to NEVER buy something at regular price. You'll get it at 5 bucks or cheaper soon enough.
As a customer - this is great, but it can't be too good for the business bottom line. I can't imagine the PAs are too happy with Daz devaluing their products either. Their only choice is to make lower quality content - and now the customer suffers.
As a customer - this is great, but it can't be too good for the business bottom line. I can't imagine the PAs are too happy with Daz devaluing their products either. Their only choice is to make lower quality content - and now the customer suffers.
Wow! So they think this is a good idea??? e-ON Vue did that, started a t $20 per month and up. And what happened? Bentley said, yeah, we're done and gave it all away for free.
I finally got a new workhorse computer last year, one that I could use with DS. I'm not paying $20 per month, and I doubt I'll even pay $10 per month for this latest cash grab.
Guess it's time to learn Blender, when I can find the time that is.
I finally got a new workhorse computer last year, one that I could use with DS. I'm not paying $20 per month, and I doubt I'll even pay $10 per month for this latest cash grab.
Guess it's time to learn Blender, when I can find the time that is.
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A DAZ+ subscription WAS something like $70-to-$100 annually, and usually a good deal less if you got it on sale. Not too bad of a deal, considering what you got for the price.
DAZ now only seems to support three memberships: DAZ Base (which is free), DAZ Plus (which is $9.99/month, and which I've apparently been switched to without my knowledge or consent), and DAZ Premier (which is $18.99/month). That means that DAZ Plus is at least $20 a year more expensive than DAZ+ for the exact same benefits.
By switching to monthly billing, DAZ can show its investors/owners a steadier cash-flow instead of a lot of one-time annual purchases, and it's also a higher cash-flow, since you're paying at least 20% more for the same benefits.
Yeah, this is not a good deal for customers.
DAZ now only seems to support three memberships: DAZ Base (which is free), DAZ Plus (which is $9.99/month, and which I've apparently been switched to without my knowledge or consent), and DAZ Premier (which is $18.99/month). That means that DAZ Plus is at least $20 a year more expensive than DAZ+ for the exact same benefits.
By switching to monthly billing, DAZ can show its investors/owners a steadier cash-flow instead of a lot of one-time annual purchases, and it's also a higher cash-flow, since you're paying at least 20% more for the same benefits.
Yeah, this is not a good deal for customers.
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Meh.
IMO the Daz store is geared to newcomers. Sure, I might buy a shiny or clear out my wishlist during a big sale; but most of my recent purchases have been here and similar, non-daz stores. I argue, Daz+ and Premier are geared towards those new to the hobby/industry, who are buying like mad to fill out their initial assets.
IMO the Daz store is geared to newcomers. Sure, I might buy a shiny or clear out my wishlist during a big sale; but most of my recent purchases have been here and similar, non-daz stores. I argue, Daz+ and Premier are geared towards those new to the hobby/industry, who are buying like mad to fill out their initial assets.
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stevenjoseph8844
Karma: 1,725
Mon, Oct 07, 2024I dont think Daz thought it through with this premier sub.. newcomers won't need character converter or pose converter. most of that stuff you can get cheaper with plugins that work great already. Has Daz lost touch with there userbase??? OH YEAH - AI STUDIO! question answered. 
Fuck 'em and the weird looking horse 3 they rode in on.
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stevenjoseph8844
Karma: 1,725
Mon, Oct 07, 2024I was try to think a nicer way to say this, so I just agree with you!!!
So I've worked in the kind of VC-funded operation that Tafi (who owns DAZ) appears to be and everything about this smacks of executives attempting to make number go up, just like all the trend-chasing things they've thrown against the wall (NFTs, AI Studio). Given that the copy on exactly what the "features" of Daz Studio Premier are, I would not be the slightest bit surprised if this was a mandate that came down from on high _without_ consulting any of the actual Daz employees, and they've been scrambling to figure out what Studio Premier should even be (hence the hand-wave about features)
This is, of course, speculation, but I've seen this dynamic play out over and over in VC tech, so it sure looks like it's following the pattern.
This is, of course, speculation, but I've seen this dynamic play out over and over in VC tech, so it sure looks like it's following the pattern.
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kwerkx
Karma: 6,147
Fri, Dec 20, 2024I've seen the same pattern; but with companies that are packaging themselves up for sale. Moves are geared towards adding logos and datapoints to the sale sheet.
So, hold on, Daz is becoming subscription-based? Like Photoshop?
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EleanorA
Karma: 318
Sun, Oct 20, 2024They're taking the first steps in that direction, but in an even worse fashion than Adobe. At least with Adobe you might lose access while unsubscribed, but you get everything back upon resubbing. The new subscription content likely is lost forever if the subscription lapses.
No, it's their loyalty club membership that has moved from a yearly to monthly rate
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Masterstroke
Karma: 3,726
Mon, Oct 07, 2024Well a little bit. As far as I understand, some software features (sculpting and special export options) in DS are only available with a premier subscription.
This new monettization scheme was inevitable as Daz is Bleeding users to AI image generators.
it won't attract any new users not even from the other 3DCC like Blender or Maya because they Do not
care about Daz or Genesis and the Reallusion Folks certainly dont care as we are character
animators and Daz Clearly has no interest in that aspect of 3D/CG. I Imagine many of the Daz
loyalists will sign up despite their canting screeds posted in the forums so this will probably be a
net gain for Daz inc.
it won't attract any new users not even from the other 3DCC like Blender or Maya because they Do not
care about Daz or Genesis and the Reallusion Folks certainly dont care as we are character
animators and Daz Clearly has no interest in that aspect of 3D/CG. I Imagine many of the Daz
loyalists will sign up despite their canting screeds posted in the forums so this will probably be a
net gain for Daz inc.
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Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Wed, Oct 09, 2024I've already submitted my request to have them downgrade me from DAZ Plus (formerly DAZ+) to DAZ Base (the free option). I'm not sticking around to be a part of this BS. I need access to my content library until I finish backing everything up, and then I'm out for good. I'm not going to be buying anything from them in the meantime, so I don't give a rat's ass about giving up the perks and discounts, and I sure as hell don't want to get billed for it every month, either. I gave DAZ a second chance after they dropped their attempt at content encryption, but I think I'm done with them for good, this time.
I hate subscriptions, I already have a subscription to water, gas, electricity and telephone, that's more than enough for me.
The French state has subscribed me to taxes and duties without me signing a subscription
The French state has subscribed me to taxes and duties without me signing a subscription
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Apparently Daz has bought out a popular third party plugin (mesh grabber) and put it behind the Paywall as premier item.
probably because it competes with the new mesh sculpting feature in Daz studio premier.
The forum thread complaining about it is already locked.
I see also this:
Convert Daz rigs for Unreal Engine, MetaHuman, or Mixamo with a click. Export your characters directly into Unreal projects or experiment with animations in Mixamo
It looks like they will include the ability to convert your Genesis 9 figure rigging to make them compatible with the Mixamo animation system.
Cool idea …except I already converted the ENTIRE 2,700 item mixamo library to G8 compatible BVH and gave them away as freebie
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/8423/free-2700-bespoke-bvh-animations-for-daz-genesis-8.
And there is a FREE script at Renderosity to convert G8 animated .duf poses to G9:
https://www.renderosity.com/freestuff/items/93511/genesis-1238-pose-converter-for-genesis-9
Now ,in case you were not aware, ALL previous Daz Studio
plugins&utilities will be broken by Daz studio 5
due Migration to a new core.
Lets see how many other popular third party utilities Daz grabs up and segregates behind their new paywall in Daz studio 5
and charge people $19 dollars per month to rent them.
probably because it competes with the new mesh sculpting feature in Daz studio premier.
The forum thread complaining about it is already locked.
I see also this:
Convert Daz rigs for Unreal Engine, MetaHuman, or Mixamo with a click. Export your characters directly into Unreal projects or experiment with animations in Mixamo
It looks like they will include the ability to convert your Genesis 9 figure rigging to make them compatible with the Mixamo animation system.
Cool idea …except I already converted the ENTIRE 2,700 item mixamo library to G8 compatible BVH and gave them away as freebie
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/8423/free-2700-bespoke-bvh-animations-for-daz-genesis-8.
And there is a FREE script at Renderosity to convert G8 animated .duf poses to G9:
https://www.renderosity.com/freestuff/items/93511/genesis-1238-pose-converter-for-genesis-9
Now ,in case you were not aware, ALL previous Daz Studio
plugins&utilities will be broken by Daz studio 5
due Migration to a new core.
Lets see how many other popular third party utilities Daz grabs up and segregates behind their new paywall in Daz studio 5
and charge people $19 dollars per month to rent them.
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EleanorA
Karma: 318
Sat, Oct 19, 2024Oh no, it is the mesh sculpting feature. All the plugins they bought and removed from the store have been renamed and made into subscription features. I fully expect Studio 5 will be entirely subscription.
Bets on them killing any way to download except their garbage Connect and making everything encrypted so non-subscribers can't get to their library if they didn't back it up. Making 5 encrypted content only would let them eliminate any competition after all.
Bets on them killing any way to download except their garbage Connect and making everything encrypted so non-subscribers can't get to their library if they didn't back it up. Making 5 encrypted content only would let them eliminate any competition after all.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sun, Oct 20, 2024Well, for years Daz enjoyed the benefit of a captive user base. Poser and it’s native figure can’t compete
and even if you are willing to accept the bad looking joints and lack of HD Details in Reallusion Icone/CC4, the cost to get both is nearly $1000.
I am convinced that Daz has suffered a loss of regular buyers ,in their market for still image creation to generative AI ,and that is why this new rentware scheme is being implemented.
They have added nothing but a crappy early 2000’s
style “toonengine to Daz studio as an excuse start renting content.
and even if you are willing to accept the bad looking joints and lack of HD Details in Reallusion Icone/CC4, the cost to get both is nearly $1000.
I am convinced that Daz has suffered a loss of regular buyers ,in their market for still image creation to generative AI ,and that is why this new rentware scheme is being implemented.
They have added nothing but a crappy early 2000’s
style “toonengine to Daz studio as an excuse start renting content.
kwerkx
Karma: 6,147
Sun, Oct 20, 2024TBH Anabran's comments have me seriously thinking about Reallusion products; but, familiarity bias keeps me on Daz studio.
Rentware and market capture are common business themes; they should not be a surprise to anyone. I look at this from a modern (performative) business perspective. Buyers can leave; but most of their accounts remain, crappy 2000's products are crap; but they count as products, sales are sales, and as I've mentioned Daz is great as an introductory gateway. Those are amazing bullet points for investor meetings.
I think that for some companies investors matter more than customers. If you show investors the right slides and/or make their requested changes, you get funding for the next year or so. Once the bills are paid, the customer becomes secondary. Their motivation may be admirable, maybe to create the most realistic, commercially available, and affordable 3d models on the market. But money events (merger, sale, IPO) are more likely once investors are aboard.
Positivity! I've used the "social media" tools here at Renderhub more than any other store; while improvement and evolution is always recommended, they've got that right. Renderhub caters to more than one product, exposure to products outside of our individual silos.
Suggestions: A sticky to instructions on how manually install Daz content at the top of the Daz storefront. And blogs or articles on migrating to other products (e.g. how do I do this Daz thing and how do I shoehorn my Daz stuff into it).. to break that familiarity bias.
Sorry for the excessively long post.
Rentware and market capture are common business themes; they should not be a surprise to anyone. I look at this from a modern (performative) business perspective. Buyers can leave; but most of their accounts remain, crappy 2000's products are crap; but they count as products, sales are sales, and as I've mentioned Daz is great as an introductory gateway. Those are amazing bullet points for investor meetings.
I think that for some companies investors matter more than customers. If you show investors the right slides and/or make their requested changes, you get funding for the next year or so. Once the bills are paid, the customer becomes secondary. Their motivation may be admirable, maybe to create the most realistic, commercially available, and affordable 3d models on the market. But money events (merger, sale, IPO) are more likely once investors are aboard.
Positivity! I've used the "social media" tools here at Renderhub more than any other store; while improvement and evolution is always recommended, they've got that right. Renderhub caters to more than one product, exposure to products outside of our individual silos.
Suggestions: A sticky to instructions on how manually install Daz content at the top of the Daz storefront. And blogs or articles on migrating to other products (e.g. how do I do this Daz thing and how do I shoehorn my Daz stuff into it).. to break that familiarity bias.
Sorry for the excessively long post.
diogenese19348
Karma: 325
Tue, Jan 07Since DAZ 4.X doesn't have to phone home, all they are going to accomplish by making DAZ 5.0 rental only is completely kill the program. I wish I could say VC's aren't that stupid, but I know better.
Anyway my DAZ+ subscription runs out in a month, and I am cancelling it. I haven't visited the store more than twice since that nonsense started, and I had been good for a couple of hundred in sales a month. Renderhub has taken up the slack.
Of course if DAZ Studio is no longer available for free it's going to put a crimp on things in that regard too, and if DAZ doesn't think the program can be killed they need to take a good long look at the history of Poser when it was owned by Smith Micro.
I can't see at this point how they are not bleeding sales.
But DAZ the subscription service got a big hard NO from me.
If they had any sense they'd be looking into how to incorporate AI inpainting into Studio, because frankly, that's where 3D art needs to be. You can still do stuff in 3D you can't do in AI, but inpainting allows you to make it photo-real without infinite subdivisions and unloadable texture sizes.
Anyway my DAZ+ subscription runs out in a month, and I am cancelling it. I haven't visited the store more than twice since that nonsense started, and I had been good for a couple of hundred in sales a month. Renderhub has taken up the slack.
Of course if DAZ Studio is no longer available for free it's going to put a crimp on things in that regard too, and if DAZ doesn't think the program can be killed they need to take a good long look at the history of Poser when it was owned by Smith Micro.
I can't see at this point how they are not bleeding sales.
But DAZ the subscription service got a big hard NO from me.
If they had any sense they'd be looking into how to incorporate AI inpainting into Studio, because frankly, that's where 3D art needs to be. You can still do stuff in 3D you can't do in AI, but inpainting allows you to make it photo-real without infinite subdivisions and unloadable texture sizes.
Are the current monetization techniques not working? I also thought the idea with DAZ was the program was free, but it's the content you (mostly) have to pay for. Now it looks like you have to pay for program features, as well as "rent" the content you're using.
I half-expect Genesis 10 to get the subscription-wall treatment for a number of things.
I half-expect Genesis 10 to get the subscription-wall treatment for a number of things.
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Pinspotter
Karma: 5,497
Mon, Oct 14, 2024"I half-expect Genesis 10 to get the subscription-wall treatment for a number of things."
Oh, you can count on it.
Oh, you can count on it.
A little history for those who don't know or might have forgotten.
Before Tafi acquired DAZ, DAZ released three versions of DAZ Studio 4: free, standard (with a slightly expanded toolset), and pro (with a larger toolset). These were all separately-purchasable items, not tied to a subscription. You could have a free DAZ account or you could be a DAZ+ (or whatever it was called back then) member, and still purchase the pro version of DAZ Studio 4 -- the only real difference was that you got a discount on your purchase by being a DAZ+ member. (If I remember correctly, I paid about $150 for my copy of DS4 Pro, and it was pretty comparably priced to the version of Poser that was also being released at that time. )
After Tafi acquired DAZ, the decision was made to discontinue the free and standard versions of DAZ Studio 4, and to release DAZ Studio 4 Pro free to all users. This was both good and bad. It was good in that DAZ only had to concentrate on developing one version of the program, and also good in that everyone got the best possible version of DAZ Studio 4 at no cost.
However, it was bad in that anyone who had been stupid enough to actually BUY a copy of DAZ Studio 4 Pro got absolutely nothing by way of gratitude or apology once it was being given away. If you were still within the 30 days after purchase you could have applied for a refund, but if you were at 31 days, you were out of luck -- and you know damn well that DAZ/Tafi knew they were going to be giving it away for free a helluva lot longer than 31 days before they did so, and they never said a fucking word about.
So now DAZ/Tafi want me and the rest of its user base to pay for a pro or premium version of DAZ Studio again after pulling that little stunt? Are you fucking kidding me?
Before Tafi acquired DAZ, DAZ released three versions of DAZ Studio 4: free, standard (with a slightly expanded toolset), and pro (with a larger toolset). These were all separately-purchasable items, not tied to a subscription. You could have a free DAZ account or you could be a DAZ+ (or whatever it was called back then) member, and still purchase the pro version of DAZ Studio 4 -- the only real difference was that you got a discount on your purchase by being a DAZ+ member. (If I remember correctly, I paid about $150 for my copy of DS4 Pro, and it was pretty comparably priced to the version of Poser that was also being released at that time. )
After Tafi acquired DAZ, the decision was made to discontinue the free and standard versions of DAZ Studio 4, and to release DAZ Studio 4 Pro free to all users. This was both good and bad. It was good in that DAZ only had to concentrate on developing one version of the program, and also good in that everyone got the best possible version of DAZ Studio 4 at no cost.
However, it was bad in that anyone who had been stupid enough to actually BUY a copy of DAZ Studio 4 Pro got absolutely nothing by way of gratitude or apology once it was being given away. If you were still within the 30 days after purchase you could have applied for a refund, but if you were at 31 days, you were out of luck -- and you know damn well that DAZ/Tafi knew they were going to be giving it away for free a helluva lot longer than 31 days before they did so, and they never said a fucking word about.
So now DAZ/Tafi want me and the rest of its user base to pay for a pro or premium version of DAZ Studio again after pulling that little stunt? Are you fucking kidding me?
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My daz plus membership is paid up through Aug 25. I dont plan on going premier. Neither are my friends who use Daz.
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I've decided to give the Premier subscription a try. They gave me a month of Premier for my DAZ+ balance (I had just renewed my quarterly membership). I'm just curious about what it offers and how it works. If I don't like it, I'll cancel and return to DAZ Plus, as it's called now. I am by no means an advanced DAZ user; many of the new features might not be apparent to me. One thing that does interest me is the ability to "optimize rendering performance"; looking forward to seeing what that does.
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From lookin at the forums, this shit is going over about as well as their little DRM scheme lol...... Moderators working overtime trying to keep up that censorship like that time as well.
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ArtbyMel
Karma: 10,419
Thu, Oct 10, 2024Oh yeah, they already deleted the thread of people saying absolutely no way am I buying into this.
My first purchase with Daz was back in July of 2004. I'm buying what I want now while I can get it cheaper, and then I'm done. I cancelled my Daz+ which runs out in Jan 23 2025. I have terabytes of content for Poser, Vue, Carrara, and DS. I have zero interest in creating realistic images, never have. I just like to make art, and I had a nice run of commissions, both private and commercial, before AI came along. I'll still make art for fun, for myself, and because I enjoy it. But I'm done feeding the Daz money machine.
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Masterstroke
Karma: 3,726
Thu, Oct 10, 2024I'm almost with you, but here's the thing.
I am absolutely and only interested in realism, but DAZ just doesn't come my way.
I am sick and tiered of Fairies and Mushrooms,
tiered of elfes and Lord Of The rings like stuff
Tiered of American Style architecture and environments.
Tired of modern straight line architecture.
tiered of G9 stylized bimbo characters with six packs every guy wish to have.
I am absolutely and only interested in realism, but DAZ just doesn't come my way.
I am sick and tiered of Fairies and Mushrooms,
tiered of elfes and Lord Of The rings like stuff
Tiered of American Style architecture and environments.
Tired of modern straight line architecture.
tiered of G9 stylized bimbo characters with six packs every guy wish to have.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Thu, Oct 10, 2024The Daz forums are their petty fiefdom so I expect them to Delete Posts and entire threads that do not fit the narrative.
The truth of the matter is this;
Daz sent out a survey to many of their “frequent buyersa year ago.
In it they asked specifically if generative AI was the reason they decreased their content purchases and most bluntly told them ..Yes.( Gulp!!)
Daz then seemingly abandoned a their text driven AI 3D Character builder that they showcased ,well over a year ago, and rushed out a very bare bones, mediocre AI art generation online tool trained on image data of the genesis 9 figures & content.
This emboldened AI enthusiasts in the Daz community to unapologetically discuss their use of AI as Daz in. was now officially pro as well.
However this did not help keep people on the Daz
$$$content hamster wheel$$ as AI generators like midjourney or Leonardo AI are lightyears ahead of the basic image maker on the Daz site, so they are spending their money on monthly subs over for the unlimited and advanced features on those sites.
This pro AI demographic may croon a little, in the forums, about the new rental paywall but they already have an alternative for their still image fantasy art& illustration that produces SUPERIOR RESULTS to anything you will ever see from Daz studio content & Iray.
The casual Daz user is effectively already Lost to AI.
Most of the die hard, content hoarding, Daz loyalists are also very Anti-AI but it would seem that their numbers and/or buying habits are not enough for the bean counters at Tafi/Daz.
So Daz has to now forcibly extract monthly a tithe from any member of the faithful that wishes to have access to the best Daz has on offer.
The truth of the matter is this;
Daz sent out a survey to many of their “frequent buyersa year ago.
In it they asked specifically if generative AI was the reason they decreased their content purchases and most bluntly told them ..Yes.( Gulp!!)
Daz then seemingly abandoned a their text driven AI 3D Character builder that they showcased ,well over a year ago, and rushed out a very bare bones, mediocre AI art generation online tool trained on image data of the genesis 9 figures & content.
This emboldened AI enthusiasts in the Daz community to unapologetically discuss their use of AI as Daz in. was now officially pro as well.
However this did not help keep people on the Daz
$$$content hamster wheel$$ as AI generators like midjourney or Leonardo AI are lightyears ahead of the basic image maker on the Daz site, so they are spending their money on monthly subs over for the unlimited and advanced features on those sites.
This pro AI demographic may croon a little, in the forums, about the new rental paywall but they already have an alternative for their still image fantasy art& illustration that produces SUPERIOR RESULTS to anything you will ever see from Daz studio content & Iray.
The casual Daz user is effectively already Lost to AI.
Most of the die hard, content hoarding, Daz loyalists are also very Anti-AI but it would seem that their numbers and/or buying habits are not enough for the bean counters at Tafi/Daz.
So Daz has to now forcibly extract monthly a tithe from any member of the faithful that wishes to have access to the best Daz has on offer.
ArtbyMel
Karma: 10,419
Thu, Oct 10, 2024I've played with AI, but not the Daz version. I could see it being useful to "polish" an image to the nth degree, but as a replacement for art? I'm seeing a trend of people moving away from it in favor of human artists. Who knows? Maybe this time next year I'll be doing commissions again. If not, well, it is what it is. My livelihood did not depend on that, it was always a nice extra paycheck for my savings account.
kwerkx
Karma: 6,147
Thu, Oct 10, 2024Same. I've bought most of what I want from Daz and will horde it away.. most new stuff is coming from here after Daz stripped the bones of Renderosity clean. I also don't like realistic images; but that's paranoia (NIL among others will come calling soon enough). Maybe I'll keep messing with Daz (I'm a hobbyist); but it may be time to evolve.. I keep telling myself to check out Blender and iClone..
Includes plug-ins that are available as long as you're a subscriber. - tolerable
In order to use those, you have to download a separate version of Daz Studio and logged into Daz Connect. - F### off.
Has assets whose license and ability to use are contingent on your subscription, even in your save files. - F### off.
Includes subscription to Daz AI Studio, and presumably the Yellow AI morph generator so long as premier sub is active - Mark my words, this is Daz posturing to make all Daz Originals subscription-based, if not a stepping stone to making the entire service into an exact copy of the Adobe model, up to and including changing the terms of prior license agreements. Wouldn't surprise me at all if one to two years down the line, they slip a command through SQL that locks all older installs, just like Adobe.
Meanwhile, they're in the process of duping people out of their Daz+ subscriptions for an amount of time that's unclear until you make the switch (says one month, but it's a bit more than that, supposed to come as some "pleasant surprise") and raising the price on Daz+ itself, and probably will again in hopes that they can push this premier even more and drop Daz+ entirely.
Their long game is to become Adobe.
In order to use those, you have to download a separate version of Daz Studio and logged into Daz Connect. - F### off.
Has assets whose license and ability to use are contingent on your subscription, even in your save files. - F### off.
Includes subscription to Daz AI Studio, and presumably the Yellow AI morph generator so long as premier sub is active - Mark my words, this is Daz posturing to make all Daz Originals subscription-based, if not a stepping stone to making the entire service into an exact copy of the Adobe model, up to and including changing the terms of prior license agreements. Wouldn't surprise me at all if one to two years down the line, they slip a command through SQL that locks all older installs, just like Adobe.
Meanwhile, they're in the process of duping people out of their Daz+ subscriptions for an amount of time that's unclear until you make the switch (says one month, but it's a bit more than that, supposed to come as some "pleasant surprise") and raising the price on Daz+ itself, and probably will again in hopes that they can push this premier even more and drop Daz+ entirely.
Their long game is to become Adobe.
REPLY
! REPORT
I'm the very last one, who would speak for that company, had my very own very bad experience with them many years ago.
Won't write down the story, but if anyone has ever heard from the famous 8, those that allegedly tried to hack that page, I'm one of them.
Never got an apology, was banned for years in the forums and gave a sh*t about it.
I bought for sure nothing at all in the following years after that allegation.
Started to use Poser and in the end only Poser.
But heck, this got more and more expensive.
So I started to use Studio again and from time to time I bought items at their page.
Haven't had daz+ since ever, so I thought, I will give this monthly thing a try.
Ok, no one forces me to use this renting stuff, but hell yeah, I got a good deal out of the 18.98
Daz is fighting for their existence and are doing it on a very stupid way, same btw goes for almost every 3d store (the fight to survive I mean).
But the bashing in this forum over daz (and renderosity) is quite ridiculous.
Vendors are creating stuff for the daz3d figures, for renderosity figures, but still bashing.
What would they do without V4 to Gen 9 or all the Poser figures?
Ever thought about that?
Take with what you like and want for a small money or let it be. No one is forced to buy anything.
You don't like a store? Well, then don't go there, easy as can be.
Or you can do a better job than the people at daz and renderosity?
Then do it!
But just stop bashing!
Won't write down the story, but if anyone has ever heard from the famous 8, those that allegedly tried to hack that page, I'm one of them.
Never got an apology, was banned for years in the forums and gave a sh*t about it.
I bought for sure nothing at all in the following years after that allegation.
Started to use Poser and in the end only Poser.
But heck, this got more and more expensive.
So I started to use Studio again and from time to time I bought items at their page.
Haven't had daz+ since ever, so I thought, I will give this monthly thing a try.
Ok, no one forces me to use this renting stuff, but hell yeah, I got a good deal out of the 18.98
Daz is fighting for their existence and are doing it on a very stupid way, same btw goes for almost every 3d store (the fight to survive I mean).
But the bashing in this forum over daz (and renderosity) is quite ridiculous.
Vendors are creating stuff for the daz3d figures, for renderosity figures, but still bashing.
What would they do without V4 to Gen 9 or all the Poser figures?
Ever thought about that?
Take with what you like and want for a small money or let it be. No one is forced to buy anything.
You don't like a store? Well, then don't go there, easy as can be.
Or you can do a better job than the people at daz and renderosity?
Then do it!
But just stop bashing!
REPLY
! REPORT
Pinspotter
Karma: 5,497
Sat, Oct 12, 2024A long time ago I bought a copy of DAZ Studio Advanced, and two weeks later the company pulls the rug out from under me, making the software free to all users. No refunds allowed.
Then, DAZ starts to implement DRM content. I voiced my opinion on the subject, resulting in my entire forum post history being scrubbed from the site. DAZ also throws the developer of Reality under the bus and rolls out its atrocious Iray render engine. Reality bridged Studio to Lux, and since Lux is open source, DAZ said NOPE can't have that! Which is bizarre considering the UI is built on QT, and its "smart content" system is built on PostGreSQL. Anyway.
I used to be subscribed to this monthy thing at DAZ, back before DAZ+ and all of that stuff. One month I decided I no longer needed it. I cancelled. Then I was double-billed for the service for a full three months after cancellation.
DAZ throws Poser under the bus by making a proprietary figure, forcing Poser to release its figure to open source, and to have to call on some talented modelers at Renderosity to develop the Dawn figure.
DAZ introduces NFTs and "non-fungible characters", trying to ride the wave of that crypto scam. Then it goes all in on AI image generation, to the point where it uses the artwork of its own vendors, side-stepping them.
DAZ swallows up at least 90% of the Poser/DAZ Studio third party content store base.
I have every right to bash that company. I'm a huge advocate of concepts like FOSS and Copyleft. DAZ is the antithesis of those concepts.
Then, DAZ starts to implement DRM content. I voiced my opinion on the subject, resulting in my entire forum post history being scrubbed from the site. DAZ also throws the developer of Reality under the bus and rolls out its atrocious Iray render engine. Reality bridged Studio to Lux, and since Lux is open source, DAZ said NOPE can't have that! Which is bizarre considering the UI is built on QT, and its "smart content" system is built on PostGreSQL. Anyway.
I used to be subscribed to this monthy thing at DAZ, back before DAZ+ and all of that stuff. One month I decided I no longer needed it. I cancelled. Then I was double-billed for the service for a full three months after cancellation.
DAZ throws Poser under the bus by making a proprietary figure, forcing Poser to release its figure to open source, and to have to call on some talented modelers at Renderosity to develop the Dawn figure.
DAZ introduces NFTs and "non-fungible characters", trying to ride the wave of that crypto scam. Then it goes all in on AI image generation, to the point where it uses the artwork of its own vendors, side-stepping them.
DAZ swallows up at least 90% of the Poser/DAZ Studio third party content store base.
I have every right to bash that company. I'm a huge advocate of concepts like FOSS and Copyleft. DAZ is the antithesis of those concepts.
Beautiful Misfits
Karma: 15,942
Sat, Oct 12, 2024It was exactly $429.95 for me as well, just saying.
I had a little store for 3d stuff and after the stupid allegation no one came and bought a thing anymore. My store was dead as can be.
Talking about money loss?
I was banned for years and nothing was left what I ever wrote.
As I said, I'm the last person who would speak for them, no reason for it on my side.
But bashing won't bring anyone any further. They won't change a thing.
All I was trying to say is, just don't spend your money over there anymore if you don't like them (only to those, that bash and buy, so if the cap don't fit ...)
Money is the Achilles' heel of every company, where it hurts the most.
I had a little store for 3d stuff and after the stupid allegation no one came and bought a thing anymore. My store was dead as can be.
Talking about money loss?
I was banned for years and nothing was left what I ever wrote.
As I said, I'm the last person who would speak for them, no reason for it on my side.
But bashing won't bring anyone any further. They won't change a thing.
All I was trying to say is, just don't spend your money over there anymore if you don't like them (only to those, that bash and buy, so if the cap don't fit ...)
Money is the Achilles' heel of every company, where it hurts the most.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sat, Oct 12, 2024Daz had to secure a stable environment and figure base ,built to uniform standards, for its content sales
and vendor support.
Poser was not “forcedto make any figure open source
they could have hired a professional Character artist
from the Autodesk community or Artstation etc and built their own quality native figures for poser along with Poser native Figure content creation tools.
They failed to do so opting to create low quality figures in house like simon , sydney pauline , Roxy etc. that neither users or vendors wanted to support.
They also somehow thought that crowd sourcing various third party saviour figures like project E
( and many others who’s names I can’t remember), was a sound business model.
They gave the creator of project E waiver to promote his figure at renderosity even thought it was sold at competing marketplace( CG bytes) and after years of on again /off again development in the end he flaked out with “life problemsagain for the umpteenth time by which time “Black heartedCreated
“Lafemmegave the base version of it to the poser community for Free for no other reason than to dunk on “Project Ebr>which he hated because of the duplicitous actions of smithMicro/Renderosity.
This all happened right after Renderosity went into a partner ship with Reallusion and they promptly abandoned it the moment some oily faced ,Blow up doll looking female “Lafemmeappeared at the door with the usual “new girl has come to save usposer forum hype.
And during ALL of this the majority poser faithful clung stubbornly to the decrepid Vicky 4 model from Daz of all places.
None of this made for a stable poser content market for vendors try to scratch out a living so many switched to making Daz content.
But its all soon to be moot as neither software (Poser or DaZ studio) will grow their user base any further
because for still Art Generative AI is the future
and even AI animation is nearly viable but still needs much work on stability & consistency
and vendor support.
Poser was not “forcedto make any figure open source
they could have hired a professional Character artist
from the Autodesk community or Artstation etc and built their own quality native figures for poser along with Poser native Figure content creation tools.
They failed to do so opting to create low quality figures in house like simon , sydney pauline , Roxy etc. that neither users or vendors wanted to support.
They also somehow thought that crowd sourcing various third party saviour figures like project E
( and many others who’s names I can’t remember), was a sound business model.
They gave the creator of project E waiver to promote his figure at renderosity even thought it was sold at competing marketplace( CG bytes) and after years of on again /off again development in the end he flaked out with “life problemsagain for the umpteenth time by which time “Black heartedCreated
“Lafemmegave the base version of it to the poser community for Free for no other reason than to dunk on “Project Ebr>which he hated because of the duplicitous actions of smithMicro/Renderosity.
This all happened right after Renderosity went into a partner ship with Reallusion and they promptly abandoned it the moment some oily faced ,Blow up doll looking female “Lafemmeappeared at the door with the usual “new girl has come to save usposer forum hype.
And during ALL of this the majority poser faithful clung stubbornly to the decrepid Vicky 4 model from Daz of all places.
None of this made for a stable poser content market for vendors try to scratch out a living so many switched to making Daz content.
But its all soon to be moot as neither software (Poser or DaZ studio) will grow their user base any further
because for still Art Generative AI is the future
and even AI animation is nearly viable but still needs much work on stability & consistency
Pinspotter
Karma: 5,497
Sun, Oct 13, 2024Look, I know you have this hard-on for throwing Poser under the bus, but I didn't lie. DAZ started out by making figures to be used in Poser. You don't even gloss over that. And Poser did in fact open source its figures, I read the official announcement from them. It's the best way to pull in modelers from the outside, to develop better figures. As I said it was the answer to DAZ making Genesis proprietary. And sure, vendors switched over to Genesis because that's where the money was. Congrats, now it's oversaturated.
Bashing on V4 again, I see. Yet nobody can tell that I still use it.
What the hell, man.......
As to the other issue, about "just don't buy from them", well DAZ monopolozed that. The only game in that town. People don't have a choice, other than to quit and learn how to model and rig their own figures and clothing. That's why all companies try to monopolize. It's like refusing to buy any more gasoline. It doesn't work that way. Boycotting is perhaps the most inept way to protest on Planet Earth. We need people to speak up, because we're the customers. Even if DAZ doesn't listen, *someone* will listen. Money is *not* a voice. DAZ will destroy itself from within, by its own greed and bad business practices. It's why Bryan jumped ship years ago.The company's already been bought what.... twice?
Bashing on V4 again, I see. Yet nobody can tell that I still use it.
What the hell, man.......
As to the other issue, about "just don't buy from them", well DAZ monopolozed that. The only game in that town. People don't have a choice, other than to quit and learn how to model and rig their own figures and clothing. That's why all companies try to monopolize. It's like refusing to buy any more gasoline. It doesn't work that way. Boycotting is perhaps the most inept way to protest on Planet Earth. We need people to speak up, because we're the customers. Even if DAZ doesn't listen, *someone* will listen. Money is *not* a voice. DAZ will destroy itself from within, by its own greed and bad business practices. It's why Bryan jumped ship years ago.The company's already been bought what.... twice?
Anabran
The various owners of Poser let an external company
(Zygote/Daz)become the single point of failure in their business model.
and then refused to spend the money to make high quality figures of their own when Daz broke away developed their own base program for genesis…Fact.
Daz had no moral obligation to continue make figures crippled by the aging Poser CR2 based technology.
Reallusion learned well from that lesson
During the Era of Iclone 1-5 the native reallusion characters were horrible low quality figures but
Reallusion Iclone could import the mighty genesis figure after they were introduced.
After the next few generation of genesis kept breaking the iclone importer Reallusion got smart and Created Character creator and their own family of higher quality figures & content and now the great majority of Iclone users ignore Daz DAZ genesis completely.
Maya and Blender user I can tell you the no one in those communities are using Genesis models from DAZ
and unreal engine has the Metahumans
The only people still crying about Daz’s fictional “monopolyare the one who refuse to hold the many owners of poser accountable for their DUMB decisions.
Karma: 2,559
Mon, Oct 14, 2024The various owners of Poser let an external company
(Zygote/Daz)become the single point of failure in their business model.
and then refused to spend the money to make high quality figures of their own when Daz broke away developed their own base program for genesis…Fact.
Daz had no moral obligation to continue make figures crippled by the aging Poser CR2 based technology.
Reallusion learned well from that lesson
During the Era of Iclone 1-5 the native reallusion characters were horrible low quality figures but
Reallusion Iclone could import the mighty genesis figure after they were introduced.
After the next few generation of genesis kept breaking the iclone importer Reallusion got smart and Created Character creator and their own family of higher quality figures & content and now the great majority of Iclone users ignore Daz DAZ genesis completely.
Maya and Blender user I can tell you the no one in those communities are using Genesis models from DAZ
and unreal engine has the Metahumans
The only people still crying about Daz’s fictional “monopolyare the one who refuse to hold the many owners of poser accountable for their DUMB decisions.
Pinspotter
Karma: 5,497
Mon, Oct 14, 2024Most of what you just said about DAZ and Poser is false. What you just said about Blender users is also false. And every time you spout somehting, you talk down at the very base of users that buy your own content. You're probably just trolling me again. Trolling us. You're a proponent of AI image generation which should be a red flag in and of itself.
"Mighty Genesis" all Genesis has is higher poly count and an improved weight mapping. And if you're gonna use that figure in games, you're decimating the figure and using your own rigging anyway. So that point is moot. And those who do animations professionally, they use Cascadeur.
"Most of the die hard, content hoarding, Daz loyalists" yep we have a name for that attitude in my area. I for one, am not a loyalist. My above post should be proof enough of that. And I'm not the only one with that opinion. I just happen to have around 100 characters built on the V4 base. I won't explain why I haven't moved on to other software, I explained that elsewhere. But using a DAZ figure does not make someone a loyalist.
"Mighty Genesis" all Genesis has is higher poly count and an improved weight mapping. And if you're gonna use that figure in games, you're decimating the figure and using your own rigging anyway. So that point is moot. And those who do animations professionally, they use Cascadeur.
"Most of the die hard, content hoarding, Daz loyalists" yep we have a name for that attitude in my area. I for one, am not a loyalist. My above post should be proof enough of that. And I'm not the only one with that opinion. I just happen to have around 100 characters built on the V4 base. I won't explain why I haven't moved on to other software, I explained that elsewhere. But using a DAZ figure does not make someone a loyalist.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Mon, Oct 14, 2024I was a poser user since they were owned by fractal designs in the 1990’s.
Everything I have posted about posers history is a verifiable fact as I was there .
I have owned very version of poser from poser 2 to Poser 12.
I know the history of the software throughout all of it owners
( Curious labs, metacreations E-frontier,Smith Micro and now Bondware/Renderosity)
You are free to use Poser& DAZ vicky 4 all you want
but the commercial market knows
Poser is a vestigial relic of a bygone era
and the latest white girl saviour figure “Dawn 2
won’t change that reality .
Where is the Poser section here on Renderhub?
I just opened a store on flipped normals for my Ragdoll physics animations for G9
No poser items over there either.
Poser is on full life support from the sales of Daz genesis content that DOMINATES the Renderosity market place and Ad spam on the main site.
And BTW the dominant software for animation in both games and films is Autodesk Maya & Motionbuilder not cascaduer.
Just go to any professional job board like Artsation
or any “careerssection of any major game or film animation studio website and look at the software knowledge requirements
for the job of “animatorbr>
you will see what I mean.
Facts Matter.
Everything I have posted about posers history is a verifiable fact as I was there .
I have owned very version of poser from poser 2 to Poser 12.
I know the history of the software throughout all of it owners
( Curious labs, metacreations E-frontier,Smith Micro and now Bondware/Renderosity)
You are free to use Poser& DAZ vicky 4 all you want
but the commercial market knows
Poser is a vestigial relic of a bygone era
and the latest white girl saviour figure “Dawn 2
won’t change that reality .
Where is the Poser section here on Renderhub?
I just opened a store on flipped normals for my Ragdoll physics animations for G9
No poser items over there either.
Poser is on full life support from the sales of Daz genesis content that DOMINATES the Renderosity market place and Ad spam on the main site.
And BTW the dominant software for animation in both games and films is Autodesk Maya & Motionbuilder not cascaduer.
Just go to any professional job board like Artsation
or any “careerssection of any major game or film animation studio website and look at the software knowledge requirements
for the job of “animatorbr>
you will see what I mean.
Facts Matter.
Pinspotter
Karma: 5,497
Thu, Oct 17, 2024I personally know a game developer using Cascadeur this very day in his game development pipeline. You are a troll. I so wish I could block you in these forums but that isn't an option. Why it isn't, is beyond me.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Thu, Oct 17, 2024So emotional..
Clearly people are using Cascadure , I have it installed on two of my PC’s.
However you “personally knowingsomeone who uses Cascaduer
is not the same as saying; “And those who do animations professionally, they use Cascadeur.br>
I have an IMDB film credit for an animation I did
“professionallyusing Poser back in 2012
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4134490/
That does not mean that Poser is generally used by the professional animation industry..see the difference?
In the Games & films animation industry Autodesk Maya is the Dominant software, with good reason….Fact
Ask google ask ChatGPT.
and please... grow up and stop acting like a victim of “trollingwhen facts Do not support your reductive, personal opinions.
Clearly people are using Cascadure , I have it installed on two of my PC’s.
However you “personally knowingsomeone who uses Cascaduer
is not the same as saying; “And those who do animations professionally, they use Cascadeur.br>
I have an IMDB film credit for an animation I did
“professionallyusing Poser back in 2012
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4134490/
That does not mean that Poser is generally used by the professional animation industry..see the difference?
In the Games & films animation industry Autodesk Maya is the Dominant software, with good reason….Fact
Ask google ask ChatGPT.
and please... grow up and stop acting like a victim of “trollingwhen facts Do not support your reductive, personal opinions.
I've been with Daz since before it was Daz. I was using Zygote 3D models in Poser 3 25+ years ago. I took a long break from art due to work, family and time commitments, then came back hard a year ago. I have just upgraded my subscription because I'm curious as to what I'll get in the software. I spend a tonne of money on Daz products, probably a grand in the last 12 months, so the discount codes and offers in the Premier subscription, I'm thinking are quite good for me. However, I spend far too much money on my hobby, and I'm worried that maybe I'll get tied into the subscription tier or lose my content. Then if Daz suddenly becomes unavailable to me, what do I do?
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! REPORT
Beautiful Misfits
Karma: 15,942
Sat, Oct 12, 2024I think, we all have been there, spending too much money on 3d stuff.
A subscription can be canceled
Losing content? I have 2 external hd, both filled with the same stuff, double security.
If one breaks I'll get a new one to create another double copy, always being on the safe side. Too much money I don't wanna lose complete.
And I always have Studio installed on the hd as well
A subscription can be canceled
Losing content? I have 2 external hd, both filled with the same stuff, double security.
If one breaks I'll get a new one to create another double copy, always being on the safe side. Too much money I don't wanna lose complete.
And I always have Studio installed on the hd as well
EleanorA
Karma: 318
Sun, Oct 20, 2024Wont work for the new subscription content. Back it up all you want, the files are encrypted and are useless without active subscription. (And may be useless even if you resubscribe as they aren't commiting to restoring subscription content if the subscription is interrupted.)
It's almost like they want piracy, as the last time they did this pirates had the encrypted content decrypted and shared the day after it realeased. Bets are Aiko 9 will be all over the pirate sites once someone either digs out their decrypter or makes a new one.
As usual DRM only punishes legit customers
It's almost like they want piracy, as the last time they did this pirates had the encrypted content decrypted and shared the day after it realeased. Bets are Aiko 9 will be all over the pirate sites once someone either digs out their decrypter or makes a new one.
As usual DRM only punishes legit customers
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Sun, Oct 20, 2024From what I understand, the content the pirates posted was incomplete and broken, especially things like weight maps and rigging. It wasn't simply the original content minus any encryption. It didn't sound like they had actually defeated the encryption at all, simply posting the OBJs and some textures that they were able to extract from the installers.
There is a way to get DAZ to stop doing this shit, and it's the same way we got them to back off of encryption the first time, and that way is to simply stop giving them money. Resist the temptation to have whatever shiny new thing DAZ is offering and starve them into submission. It's been something like two weeks since this crap began, and I haven't bought a fucking thing from them since then, which means something like $200 or more not in DAZ's pocket. Multiply that by every user and keep it going for weeks or even months, and eventually they'll have to take corrective action. Buy from here, Render*osity, Render*otica, or whatever vendor you like, support those platforms and those artists, but give DAZ absolutely NOTHING. Let the fuckers at Tafi sweat a little as they watch DAZ's revenue fall off a cliff.
There is a way to get DAZ to stop doing this shit, and it's the same way we got them to back off of encryption the first time, and that way is to simply stop giving them money. Resist the temptation to have whatever shiny new thing DAZ is offering and starve them into submission. It's been something like two weeks since this crap began, and I haven't bought a fucking thing from them since then, which means something like $200 or more not in DAZ's pocket. Multiply that by every user and keep it going for weeks or even months, and eventually they'll have to take corrective action. Buy from here, Render*osity, Render*otica, or whatever vendor you like, support those platforms and those artists, but give DAZ absolutely NOTHING. Let the fuckers at Tafi sweat a little as they watch DAZ's revenue fall off a cliff.
EleanorA
Karma: 318
Sun, Oct 20, 2024Pretty much my plan. They may fake subscription numbers with their offer, but in a few months I expect most will drop off before paying $18.99. And if they’re just grabbing the free stuff, DAZ isn’t making money off the converted DAZ+ accounts.
MKDAWUSS
Karma: 49,077
Sun, Oct 20, 2024" Resist the temptation to have whatever shiny new thing DAZ is offering and starve them into submission."
Kinda easy to do once they've left you behind with the new shiny. I do have a few WL items I'd still like to clear out, though.
Kinda easy to do once they've left you behind with the new shiny. I do have a few WL items I'd still like to clear out, though.
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Sun, Oct 20, 2024I suspect that whatever plans DAZ/Tafi have come up with have anticipated a degree of dissatisfaction, which would include a certain number of existing users scaling back on their purchases or even bowing out altogether, but they also must expect to make up for it in the long term, either by adding new users or with remaining users ramping up their purchases. I honestly don't think there are that many new users out there for them to recruit, especially with the recent improvements in Blender and A.I.-generated art. I also think most current users are already pretty much at their maximums in terms of spending, especially with today's prices. It took DAZ something like 9 mos. to a year to completely abandon the idea of encrypting content, so I'm curious to see how long they can hold out this time.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Mon, Oct 21, 2024The biggest problem Daz will face in Adding new users is not the 19/month cost but the clawback feature of “premiumcontent if you choose to stop paying.
All of the AI Image services have a free basic plan ,with many limitations, with the best models/options and styles locked behind a monthly paywall.
I recently found an AI image site that had the perfect
cartoon /comic styles for my graphic novel but I had to “bite the bulletand paid $15 for month of access to use those styles.
so for nearly four weeks I spent many hours of my day feverishly creating multiple variations of the images for my novel and generally hoarding images for other uses such as backgrounds for my Reallusion Cartoon animator scenes and you tube video thumbnails whatever.
I canceled my subscription and lost access to those styles but I literally have thousands of “stockimages I can use indefinitely.
Daz will not be able to compete with AI because newbies or casual users, needing some art for one or two projects, can do exactly what I did using AI without any fear of Daz “deactivatingsome custom Character he cobbled using “rentedcontent.
All of the AI Image services have a free basic plan ,with many limitations, with the best models/options and styles locked behind a monthly paywall.
I recently found an AI image site that had the perfect
cartoon /comic styles for my graphic novel but I had to “bite the bulletand paid $15 for month of access to use those styles.
so for nearly four weeks I spent many hours of my day feverishly creating multiple variations of the images for my novel and generally hoarding images for other uses such as backgrounds for my Reallusion Cartoon animator scenes and you tube video thumbnails whatever.
I canceled my subscription and lost access to those styles but I literally have thousands of “stockimages I can use indefinitely.
Daz will not be able to compete with AI because newbies or casual users, needing some art for one or two projects, can do exactly what I did using AI without any fear of Daz “deactivatingsome custom Character he cobbled using “rentedcontent.
EleanorA
Karma: 318
Mon, Oct 21, 2024And again with the other service, you'd get all the styles back upon resubscribing. This idea of content being lost forever if the subscription lapses is utter bullshit. I can't imagine anyone being ok with every scenefile using those characters being irreversably broken if they can't pay up every month forever.
My thoughts are a giant fuck you to adobe as the assholes that pioneered rentware, and the AAA gaming industry for nickel and dime-ing full-price paying customers…
Ironically, I opened a thread commending Daz as being one of the best software companies out there at the official forums that is, until I found out about their rentware… Now I'm a bit disappointed.
Ironically, I opened a thread commending Daz as being one of the best software companies out there at the official forums that is, until I found out about their rentware… Now I'm a bit disappointed.
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I was a whale and saw this as anti-consumer; so I called it out on the forums. Got my posts removed and put on a list where all my posts had to be preapproved before going live. Haven't bought anything from them since.
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stevenjoseph8844
Karma: 1,725
Wed, Jan 15Sadly, you're not the only one this BS happened to. Daz doesn't want to listen to the customer base and I think that's one of their biggest problems.
I really hope it fails because it reminds me of what Adobe has become (and that's why I don't use CC anymore).
I had already decided not to renew my DAZ+ subscription before these new plans popped up, and I obviously won't subscribe to this.
What I find to be a bad move is locking some features of the program behind a paywall.
DAZ Studio has always been free (if I'm not mistaken), and that's why people buy content, so this is just greed.
I had already decided not to renew my DAZ+ subscription before these new plans popped up, and I obviously won't subscribe to this.
What I find to be a bad move is locking some features of the program behind a paywall.
DAZ Studio has always been free (if I'm not mistaken), and that's why people buy content, so this is just greed.
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guy91600
Karma: 12,835
Wed, Oct 23, 2024Daz 4.5 pro was sold for a few years, but there was a free version alongside
EleanorA
Karma: 318
Thu, Oct 24, 2024Yes, which is why the subscription features bother me less than the subscription content. However, I do think DAZ should have developed its own subscription features rather than just buying out a bunch of plugins and retooling them to pretend they're new.
But subscription-based content, especially the way Daz is handling it, is vile and needs to be stamped out.
But subscription-based content, especially the way Daz is handling it, is vile and needs to be stamped out.
I'm a bit confused by it tbh. What is a base member? Free but on subscription? I don't want a subscription and own nothing, be pissed off.
Am I not already a base member but not subscribed so not confirming a new and unhealthy contract.. Can I continue to use daz under the existing contract or will that change to subscription only?
example today I can buy a doorbuster for 4.99 if I upgrade. WTF does that mean? upgrade to what a subscription? No I will delete daz and use something else even if I have to build my own render engine.
Am I not already a base member but not subscribed so not confirming a new and unhealthy contract.. Can I continue to use daz under the existing contract or will that change to subscription only?
example today I can buy a doorbuster for 4.99 if I upgrade. WTF does that mean? upgrade to what a subscription? No I will delete daz and use something else even if I have to build my own render engine.
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You can continue on and ognore the subscription bullshit. At least for now. It just bars those of us that do from using some great plugins like the new mesh grabber. Who knows what the next update will bring. Maybe pay per renders lmao
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Rubbermatt
Karma: 203
Fri, Nov 01, 2024Pay per render? It wouldn't surprise me.
These big VC corps keep buying art companies & don't have the first clue about art at all.
Bentley bought E-on software, deleted the asset store & switched to subscription. Killed Vue dead in a few short years.
Wix bought DeviantArt, formerly one of the biggest art communities, now just a cesspool of Plagiarism Engine crud.
Tech bros need to stay the hell away from art and just go jump in the ocean.
These big VC corps keep buying art companies & don't have the first clue about art at all.
Bentley bought E-on software, deleted the asset store & switched to subscription. Killed Vue dead in a few short years.
Wix bought DeviantArt, formerly one of the biggest art communities, now just a cesspool of Plagiarism Engine crud.
Tech bros need to stay the hell away from art and just go jump in the ocean.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sat, Nov 02, 2024Well to be fair Bentley systems at least had the decency to release vue and the plant factory as a FREEWARE download
when they lost interest in owning the product
So anyone who tapped out of vue during the subscription years can now reclaim a legal working copy and use any old content they acquired in the past forever.
Under Daz’s new system any Premier content
deactivates if it calls home and finds you have missed your rental payment.
when they lost interest in owning the product
So anyone who tapped out of vue during the subscription years can now reclaim a legal working copy and use any old content they acquired in the past forever.
Under Daz’s new system any Premier content
deactivates if it calls home and finds you have missed your rental payment.
The premier club thing is part of the new management style that DAZ3D took up around 2020, as far as I can tell. They moved from providing assets for artists with all kinds of discounts that pissed off content providers, to a system where pricing offers content artists better royalties, but are often outside the means of most ordinary artists.
So, they began cutting back prices, that went from $95.00 aproximate opening costs, sometimes as much as $141.00 for new content, to as much as $300.00 for new content and beyond. I have no idea of their sales figures but my guess is, their product sales tanked. Most artists are not rich by any means.
As for the new Premier feature, its double the cost of DAZ+, which I've been a member of since 2016. One, I cannot afford something like $19.00 a month, that's close to $240 a year. That's a lot of money, and make no mistake. I was an annual renewal member of DAZ+ but they've axed that option so now what I use to get for $72.00 a year, costs $120.00 a year. Yes, is is true that they give a $6.00 coupon for DAZ specific content and $6.00 off $18.00 purchase or greater, which if you can use them, makes the cost of the memberships worthwhile. But the same does not appear to be the case for Premier membership. Yes, they will offer a $10 coupon once a month for DAZ special content, and $10.00 off $25.00 or more, but the return does not measure up. Secondly, the monthly as opposed to annual means you get nailed each month, instead of one price for a year. I suspect, in my case, I will no longer be a DAZ+ participant, and I cannot begin to afford Premier.
In addition to that, that crapdido, idea of content "Only available to Premier members," which you can access only as long as you are a premier member, another commenter in this chain pegged it. If you lose your connection, and that content requires membership confirmation, you are out of luck.
As such, I won't ever be a premier member. The current managers of the company may drive its profits into the ground. I'm kind of disgusted that new content literally is de-activated as soon as a month after its introduced. Artis might be joining recently, but a lot of wonderful artists have gone and show no signs of returning. In fact many artists from DAZ3D have moved exclusively or concurrent to other content provider sites like Render Hub and CG. DAZ keeps trying to figure out how to milk more money from artists, while at the same time treating us pretty poorly. I have completely abanondoned posting art on DAZ3D's art gallery site, since that is no longer serchable, not even slightly. If you post there, people might see your art, if they log on fast enough and regularly. Otherwise, your art vanishes into the rears after a day or possibly two, as more posts push you toward the back of the line.
And the final insult is DAZ3D adding AI to their site. Their AI generator is not good to begin with, but people claiming they are artists because they typed a few prompt words onto a command line and hit enter, is not art, it's theft, at the best of times. I've taken umbridge to a host of artists at other art gallery sites literally selling AI art and claiming it's their work. The typed words and got a picture. The few times I tested AI, I processed my completed compositions through the generator, and crykers my stuff was worlds better.
So, this whole Premier thing, it's a cash grab, pure and simple. There will be a few people who fall for it. But is veterans -- won't. If this keeps up, it's going to be hard to even want to purchase any content from DAZ3D because I feel so abused and disenfranchised. That's sad because I've been doing DAZ3D digital art for ten years and have actually become somewhat adept at composition, framing, modeling, posing and many of the other things digtal artists do, when they're real digital artists, and not people who type a few words on a command line and proudly present pictures that sport men with six fingers, or more, per hand. (sigh)
Make your own evaluation but think about the genuine costs, like other people living in reality. If DAZ keeps going the way the are, they will price all their real artists out of the product and software till they go under. I hope not, I'm no good at any of the other render machines out there. At least not for now.
Traveller004
So, they began cutting back prices, that went from $95.00 aproximate opening costs, sometimes as much as $141.00 for new content, to as much as $300.00 for new content and beyond. I have no idea of their sales figures but my guess is, their product sales tanked. Most artists are not rich by any means.
As for the new Premier feature, its double the cost of DAZ+, which I've been a member of since 2016. One, I cannot afford something like $19.00 a month, that's close to $240 a year. That's a lot of money, and make no mistake. I was an annual renewal member of DAZ+ but they've axed that option so now what I use to get for $72.00 a year, costs $120.00 a year. Yes, is is true that they give a $6.00 coupon for DAZ specific content and $6.00 off $18.00 purchase or greater, which if you can use them, makes the cost of the memberships worthwhile. But the same does not appear to be the case for Premier membership. Yes, they will offer a $10 coupon once a month for DAZ special content, and $10.00 off $25.00 or more, but the return does not measure up. Secondly, the monthly as opposed to annual means you get nailed each month, instead of one price for a year. I suspect, in my case, I will no longer be a DAZ+ participant, and I cannot begin to afford Premier.
In addition to that, that crapdido, idea of content "Only available to Premier members," which you can access only as long as you are a premier member, another commenter in this chain pegged it. If you lose your connection, and that content requires membership confirmation, you are out of luck.
As such, I won't ever be a premier member. The current managers of the company may drive its profits into the ground. I'm kind of disgusted that new content literally is de-activated as soon as a month after its introduced. Artis might be joining recently, but a lot of wonderful artists have gone and show no signs of returning. In fact many artists from DAZ3D have moved exclusively or concurrent to other content provider sites like Render Hub and CG. DAZ keeps trying to figure out how to milk more money from artists, while at the same time treating us pretty poorly. I have completely abanondoned posting art on DAZ3D's art gallery site, since that is no longer serchable, not even slightly. If you post there, people might see your art, if they log on fast enough and regularly. Otherwise, your art vanishes into the rears after a day or possibly two, as more posts push you toward the back of the line.
And the final insult is DAZ3D adding AI to their site. Their AI generator is not good to begin with, but people claiming they are artists because they typed a few prompt words onto a command line and hit enter, is not art, it's theft, at the best of times. I've taken umbridge to a host of artists at other art gallery sites literally selling AI art and claiming it's their work. The typed words and got a picture. The few times I tested AI, I processed my completed compositions through the generator, and crykers my stuff was worlds better.
So, this whole Premier thing, it's a cash grab, pure and simple. There will be a few people who fall for it. But is veterans -- won't. If this keeps up, it's going to be hard to even want to purchase any content from DAZ3D because I feel so abused and disenfranchised. That's sad because I've been doing DAZ3D digital art for ten years and have actually become somewhat adept at composition, framing, modeling, posing and many of the other things digtal artists do, when they're real digital artists, and not people who type a few words on a command line and proudly present pictures that sport men with six fingers, or more, per hand. (sigh)
Make your own evaluation but think about the genuine costs, like other people living in reality. If DAZ keeps going the way the are, they will price all their real artists out of the product and software till they go under. I hope not, I'm no good at any of the other render machines out there. At least not for now.
Traveller004
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Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sun, Nov 03, 2024Honestly for all of the canting screeds, you see in the forums ,I think that the majority of the Daz use base will bend the knee and pay their rent.
If you exclude those that are Adopting AI , whom Daz is losing as customers anyway ,
the remaining users simply have no place left to go.
Reallusion Iclone/CC4 has a $900 USD buy in and you loose your Daz JCMs and HD morphs so a major down grade in figure quality With Reallusion.
with Poser your entire Daz genesis based content collection become useless.
And even with their premier Daz content behind the pay wall there are still many vendors here creating quality content that will be one time purchase only.
If you exclude those that are Adopting AI , whom Daz is losing as customers anyway ,
the remaining users simply have no place left to go.
Reallusion Iclone/CC4 has a $900 USD buy in and you loose your Daz JCMs and HD morphs so a major down grade in figure quality With Reallusion.
with Poser your entire Daz genesis based content collection become useless.
And even with their premier Daz content behind the pay wall there are still many vendors here creating quality content that will be one time purchase only.
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Sun, Nov 10, 2024I haven't bought a thing from DAZ since this all kicked off, which means that DAZ has lost at least $700 or more in sales so far from just me alone. I used that money to rebuild my home office: new tables, chairs, rug, printer, scanner, as well as acquiring a new bookcase and a stack of books on various topics (pencil drawing, Blender, GIMP, photography, etc.) that I've had on my wish-list for some time now.
My DAZ+ subscription is good through January, but I also deleted all of my payment information on my profile page just in case, and to be fair, it looks like DAZ is honoring DAZ+ subscriptions that were already paid up and not trying to sneak in any new monthly charges for DAZ Plus -- but I've also been keeping an eye on my accounts to see if they try, just in case.
Weeks after asking DAZ about downgrading my account to DAZ Base (the free option) to avoid being charged a subscription fee, they finally got back to me and told me how to do it -- except that the option to do it is not actually available from the Membership Management page. Apparently, the script they're reading out of the moderator instruction manual doesn't match up to the actual changes made to the UI. Way to go, DAZ.
I have picked up a few new items from DAZ, but only freebies. On the other hand, I've bought a couple hundred dollars worth of stuff from here, Render*osity, Render*otica, and elsewhere. Like I've said before, DAZ is going to have to be bled dry financially before they they feel compelled to change. Yeah, the content at DAZ is high quality and often attractively-priced, but if everyone can just resist the urge to have whatever shiny new thing DAZ is dangling in front of them, they can collectively force DAZ into a situation where they either have to course-correct to the customer's advantage or else face bankruptcy. That's what it's going to take.
My DAZ+ subscription is good through January, but I also deleted all of my payment information on my profile page just in case, and to be fair, it looks like DAZ is honoring DAZ+ subscriptions that were already paid up and not trying to sneak in any new monthly charges for DAZ Plus -- but I've also been keeping an eye on my accounts to see if they try, just in case.
Weeks after asking DAZ about downgrading my account to DAZ Base (the free option) to avoid being charged a subscription fee, they finally got back to me and told me how to do it -- except that the option to do it is not actually available from the Membership Management page. Apparently, the script they're reading out of the moderator instruction manual doesn't match up to the actual changes made to the UI. Way to go, DAZ.
I have picked up a few new items from DAZ, but only freebies. On the other hand, I've bought a couple hundred dollars worth of stuff from here, Render*osity, Render*otica, and elsewhere. Like I've said before, DAZ is going to have to be bled dry financially before they they feel compelled to change. Yeah, the content at DAZ is high quality and often attractively-priced, but if everyone can just resist the urge to have whatever shiny new thing DAZ is dangling in front of them, they can collectively force DAZ into a situation where they either have to course-correct to the customer's advantage or else face bankruptcy. That's what it's going to take.
guy91600
Karma: 12,835
Mon, Nov 11, 2024Anyone who has learned about management will be able to confirm that companies love subscriptions for one simple reason: it's a predictable income stream. Accountants hate to see sales fluctuate. They want to be sure of meeting the fixed monthly costs of rent, employees and various subscriptions (water, electricity, internet, maintenance, etc.).
This is one of the reasons why software is increasingly subscription-based (Microsoft (office pack), Adobe (photoshop), Marvelous Designer and now Daz).
@Katsuyaki is right
*) to be cautious to make sure there are no direct debits, you need to delete your payment information from your account, and keep an eye on your bank account.
*) money is the sinews of war, and as a customer, stopping buying is the only way to express our disagreement with a change.
This is one of the reasons why software is increasingly subscription-based (Microsoft (office pack), Adobe (photoshop), Marvelous Designer and now Daz).
@Katsuyaki is right
*) to be cautious to make sure there are no direct debits, you need to delete your payment information from your account, and keep an eye on your bank account.
*) money is the sinews of war, and as a customer, stopping buying is the only way to express our disagreement with a change.
No way I'm even considering Premier until they can provide male body shapes on the newest figure that don't have a chest compromised by the need to great big breasts. Which probably means never, since female figures and content is the focus there and everywhere else you can get assets.
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My gut intuition tells me that Daz's move toward subscription is a symptom of hard times befalling the hobbyist 3D market - the desperate dying gasps of a once profitable operation now confronting a market gone flat.
I tend to project my own experience as a 3D hobbyist onto others. And as I do, I imagine that most of us, like me, have reached a saturation point, wherein what we have already purchased is good enough. We browse the stores and find very little new releases that offer anything better than what we already have. I mean, after obtaining a few good collections of partial face and body morphs, I'm largely set up to generate new shapes all I want. And how many variations of scenes do I really need - especially sci-fi corridors? That's the way I feel about that, anyway.
Ya. I'm still using DS4.11 with M/V4 through G8 cause its good enough. And I have more assets than I even know what to do with yet.
Maybe I just lack imagination, but I cant picture the 3D hobbyist market conjuring up much new stuff that I could want enough to buy. And again, I project this onto others and see why the whole market might have gone flat.
Add to this flatness the loss to the AI market and things look even grimmer for the 3D hobbyist market. Witness how Daz keeps panic-scrambling to generate steady revenue. I suspect the game is over.
Off-the-cuff speculation: within 7 years, both DS and Poser will end up like VUE: free but no longer supported. Or, maybe supported by teams of open-source developers, the way Blender works. Or, selectively absorbed BY Blender as bridge/plug-ins.
My imagination finally kicks in on what new things I might like to buy: Revolutionary streamlined workflow. By this I mean: much reduced need to switch between modes, views, tools, to get things done. Ya. More workflow integration. I suspect the most enticing use for AI is not so much in direct image production, but in streamlining/integrating the user interfaces of the applications we use to make 3D derived images. There's so much room for radical improvement here. Imagine Daz/Poser/Blender/Maya where you could type in a prompt for AI (like: Ginger for G25F and Leo for G25M playing chess in a bathtub), get a batch of scenes from which to pick one, and have the AI offer the tools to modify the meshes, surfaces, poses and composition in one basic interface ... well, stuff like that. I suspect Daz has this in mind, but doesn't have the long term budget to make it happen. Damn.
I tend to project my own experience as a 3D hobbyist onto others. And as I do, I imagine that most of us, like me, have reached a saturation point, wherein what we have already purchased is good enough. We browse the stores and find very little new releases that offer anything better than what we already have. I mean, after obtaining a few good collections of partial face and body morphs, I'm largely set up to generate new shapes all I want. And how many variations of scenes do I really need - especially sci-fi corridors? That's the way I feel about that, anyway.
Ya. I'm still using DS4.11 with M/V4 through G8 cause its good enough. And I have more assets than I even know what to do with yet.
Maybe I just lack imagination, but I cant picture the 3D hobbyist market conjuring up much new stuff that I could want enough to buy. And again, I project this onto others and see why the whole market might have gone flat.
Add to this flatness the loss to the AI market and things look even grimmer for the 3D hobbyist market. Witness how Daz keeps panic-scrambling to generate steady revenue. I suspect the game is over.
Off-the-cuff speculation: within 7 years, both DS and Poser will end up like VUE: free but no longer supported. Or, maybe supported by teams of open-source developers, the way Blender works. Or, selectively absorbed BY Blender as bridge/plug-ins.
My imagination finally kicks in on what new things I might like to buy: Revolutionary streamlined workflow. By this I mean: much reduced need to switch between modes, views, tools, to get things done. Ya. More workflow integration. I suspect the most enticing use for AI is not so much in direct image production, but in streamlining/integrating the user interfaces of the applications we use to make 3D derived images. There's so much room for radical improvement here. Imagine Daz/Poser/Blender/Maya where you could type in a prompt for AI (like: Ginger for G25F and Leo for G25M playing chess in a bathtub), get a batch of scenes from which to pick one, and have the AI offer the tools to modify the meshes, surfaces, poses and composition in one basic interface ... well, stuff like that. I suspect Daz has this in mind, but doesn't have the long term budget to make it happen. Damn.
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Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Tue, Nov 12, 2024Lukon, sadly your assessment of the future of the 3D market situation is likely quite accurate
So, 3 months into my Premier subscription and not much changes with the exception of 18.99 a month. I've had premium content pushed into my smart content library for products I don't even own so no biggie to me if they claw them back. I have two main concerns though. The character bundles I have obtained from the monthly codes: are they mine to keep even if i cancel, or will they no longer be available? Also, the premium features of the studio: if i recall there are 5 products pulled from the store and bundled with the Premier version. The only one I've actually found in the toolset is the Geometry Sculpure. Pose converter is supposed to be in the Edit menu but it's not. The others are so insignificant I can't remember what they are. Oh render queue- which I bought anyway. Has anyone else seen the pose converter? Has it been released yet? It's installed from the DIM but nowhere to be seen.
Thoughts? I'm just thinking of cancelling after New Year.
Thoughts? I'm just thinking of cancelling after New Year.
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EleanorA
Karma: 318
Tue, Dec 17, 2024The bundles you get with the coupons are yours. It's a purchase like any other, just with a coupon making the price free.
russthedutch
Karma: 328
Wed, Dec 18, 2024Thanks for the clarification, I thought as much but just needed a 2nd opinion.
Haven't read this thread yet but I'm not surprised to see one, lol!
My own take is that the people in charge at DAZ these days appear to be far too inept. Mark my words that this subscription BS will come back to haunt them on an epic scale (E-ON Software anyone?). If I owned DAZ, I would immediately fire whoever thought that the (much-despised) subscription model was a good idea. I think they should start firing before those responsible have a chance to create even more damage, fix the situation ASAP by going back to a perpetual license model, and hope consumer trust in the company builds back.
In my humble opinion, they should send out an email to all customers, point out that the Premier business model was not well received (lol), and revert back to a perpetual license model before it's too late. These days, even the slightest hint that a company might be heading towards a subscription model, is tantamount to giving a company the kiss of death!
To actually go ahead and DO IT makes me question how those responsible ever got a job at DAZ in the first place!
What a lot of people (and clearly companies too) don't realise is that software subscription models are discriminatory unless the software is also made available under a perpetual license model as an option as can be PROVEN in this example:
PERSON 1 - Can afford the subscription and therefore has unbroken access to the software.
PERSON 2 - Cannot afford the subscription and therefore cannot have unbroken access to the software.
THIS IS DISCRIMINATION - because if the software were ALSO available under a perpetual license, then PERSON 2 would be able to save the money in order to purchase a perpetual license. The whole software subscription model IS discriminatory and unethical UNLESS a perpetual license is offered as an option. There needs to be fines for this behaviour, (very) heavy fines!
Hopefully a law will eventually come about to rectify the situation, allow fines upon ALL companies who practice it, and prevent them from doing it again. Unfortunately, we live in a world where people have more money than brain-cells and are quite happy to support these discriminatory practices simply because it doesn't effect them.
And that, dear reader, is the ONLY reason these practices continue to exist in the first place. It is PURE:LY down to dangerous lack of ethics and rampant corruption in government world-wide: Corruption that is demonstrated in their failure to protect us from this blatantly discriminatory practice.
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russthedutch
Karma: 328
Wed, Dec 18, 2024Whilst I am with you on the subscription model, these days everyone is doing it and it's not always good. I may have miss understood your post, but you seem to say that Daz is a subscription service, but it's not; only premium features are. The software remains free to all unless they choose to buy into the paid for services, whereby store discounts and exclusives are available, not to mention a premier version of the software. Concluding, Daz are not discriminating their customers, it's just options to stay free version or upgrade via subscription. The question is, is it worth it? My opinion is No.
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Thu, Dec 19, 2024I started this thread almost two-and-a-half months ago, and I haven't bought a God-damn thing from DAZ during that whole time. (Which in my case translates to somewhere between $1,000-to-$1,500 dollars that DAZ didn't receive from me, and that amount only increases each week as this situation drags on.) Grabbed a bunch of freebies, but that isn't going to help keep the lights on over there. Hope it was worth it, you fucking morons.
What I suspect will happen is that DAZ will never admit that they screwed up and apologize -- businesses rarely do that, and DAZ never does. However, in about a year or so, they will probably update their business plan and terms of service to something more closely resembling the way they did business before they kicked off this whole debacle. Basically, they'll try to roll it back without actually saying that they're rolling it back, similar to the way they dropped the encrypted content without actually saying that they were dropping encrypted content. And that also took something like a year or more for them to do. It takes a while for the financial bleeding to get to a point where the damage can't be ignored any longer -- but until they reach that point, the powers-that-be at Tafi will simply try to force their way through and hope that the customers cave in and accept the new normal before DAZ's coffers run dry.
What I suspect will happen is that DAZ will never admit that they screwed up and apologize -- businesses rarely do that, and DAZ never does. However, in about a year or so, they will probably update their business plan and terms of service to something more closely resembling the way they did business before they kicked off this whole debacle. Basically, they'll try to roll it back without actually saying that they're rolling it back, similar to the way they dropped the encrypted content without actually saying that they were dropping encrypted content. And that also took something like a year or more for them to do. It takes a while for the financial bleeding to get to a point where the damage can't be ignored any longer -- but until they reach that point, the powers-that-be at Tafi will simply try to force their way through and hope that the customers cave in and accept the new normal before DAZ's coffers run dry.
COMIXIANT
@russthedutch
Personally I fall under the example of PERSON 2, so unless you can tell me how to purchase a perpetual license for Mesh Grabber 3, then it IS indeed a subscription model. Further, unless I have the same opportunity as PERSON 1 has (that being unbroken access to the software) then the practice IS indeed discriminatory.
I've literally just proved it to you (twice), therfore in order to prove me wrong you're going to have to explain how I can (PERSON 2) can get unbroken access to the software just as PERSON 1 can. Fact is, you CANNOT do that, and the reason you CANNOT do that is BECAUSE such practices ARE discriminatory.
@Katsuyaki
Exactly, and a massive thumbs-up to you for having good ethics to NOT support them in this discriminatory practice. Honestly, to have a program like DAZ Studio on the market for decades, and in all of that time fail to bring the much needed functionality of Mesh Greabber 3, only to then dump it under a subscription model when it FINALLY arrives two effin' decades later is quite honestly one of THE most disgusting moves I think I've ever seen from ANY company.
I'm not joking, and like I said, regardless of the fact that more and more are doing it, doesn't change the fact that the practice MUST be illegal since discrimination IS illegal. Any software sold under a subscription model without the option to buy perpetual IS discriminatory for the reason pointed out.
I don't know if DAZ reads this thread, but I really hope they see sense and heed both posts I've made in it. I've been a decades long fan of DAZ and their team so this behaviour is really sad to see. If DAZ want to make money then they need to leave the content developers to get on making content while THEY get on improving DAZ Studio in areas it desperately needs improving - AND CHARGE FOR IT.
- Release DS 2025 in 2025
- Releese DS 2026 in 2026
- ETC ...
- CHARGE FOR DS BUT FFS QUIT THE SUBSCRIPTION BS!!!
- CHARGE FOR PLUGINS BUT FFS QUIT THE SUBSCRIPTION BS!!!
My god, this stuff is not rocket science, and providing they actullay did this, they'd keep their customers and would be delivering the sort of plugins that the userbase ACTUALLY want. Give us what we want and we WILL pay you for it AS LONG AS THE LICENCE IS PERPETUAL AND THE PROGRAM IS INSTALLED ON AND RUNS LOCALLY ON OUR MACHINE.
THAT is how you save DAZ, and THAT is a business model that works for both the company AND the customer (not just the company)..
- FORGET ABOUT A.I.
- FORGET ABOUT N.F.T.
- FORGET ABOUT CLOUDS
- FORGET ABOUT SUBSCRIPTIONS
Dear DAZ, please understand the nature of YOUR userbase and go back to being the good, highly-respected and wolesome company you once were. If you continue to fail to understand your userbase (and their concerns), you absolutely WILL go bust!
Karma: 1,836
Thu, Dec 19, 2024@russthedutch
Personally I fall under the example of PERSON 2, so unless you can tell me how to purchase a perpetual license for Mesh Grabber 3, then it IS indeed a subscription model. Further, unless I have the same opportunity as PERSON 1 has (that being unbroken access to the software) then the practice IS indeed discriminatory.
I've literally just proved it to you (twice), therfore in order to prove me wrong you're going to have to explain how I can (PERSON 2) can get unbroken access to the software just as PERSON 1 can. Fact is, you CANNOT do that, and the reason you CANNOT do that is BECAUSE such practices ARE discriminatory.
@Katsuyaki
Exactly, and a massive thumbs-up to you for having good ethics to NOT support them in this discriminatory practice. Honestly, to have a program like DAZ Studio on the market for decades, and in all of that time fail to bring the much needed functionality of Mesh Greabber 3, only to then dump it under a subscription model when it FINALLY arrives two effin' decades later is quite honestly one of THE most disgusting moves I think I've ever seen from ANY company.
I'm not joking, and like I said, regardless of the fact that more and more are doing it, doesn't change the fact that the practice MUST be illegal since discrimination IS illegal. Any software sold under a subscription model without the option to buy perpetual IS discriminatory for the reason pointed out.
I don't know if DAZ reads this thread, but I really hope they see sense and heed both posts I've made in it. I've been a decades long fan of DAZ and their team so this behaviour is really sad to see. If DAZ want to make money then they need to leave the content developers to get on making content while THEY get on improving DAZ Studio in areas it desperately needs improving - AND CHARGE FOR IT.
- Release DS 2025 in 2025
- Releese DS 2026 in 2026
- ETC ...
- CHARGE FOR DS BUT FFS QUIT THE SUBSCRIPTION BS!!!
- CHARGE FOR PLUGINS BUT FFS QUIT THE SUBSCRIPTION BS!!!
My god, this stuff is not rocket science, and providing they actullay did this, they'd keep their customers and would be delivering the sort of plugins that the userbase ACTUALLY want. Give us what we want and we WILL pay you for it AS LONG AS THE LICENCE IS PERPETUAL AND THE PROGRAM IS INSTALLED ON AND RUNS LOCALLY ON OUR MACHINE.
THAT is how you save DAZ, and THAT is a business model that works for both the company AND the customer (not just the company)..
- FORGET ABOUT A.I.
- FORGET ABOUT N.F.T.
- FORGET ABOUT CLOUDS
- FORGET ABOUT SUBSCRIPTIONS
Dear DAZ, please understand the nature of YOUR userbase and go back to being the good, highly-respected and wolesome company you once were. If you continue to fail to understand your userbase (and their concerns), you absolutely WILL go bust!
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Thu, Dec 19, 2024The people at DAZ that are pulling this shit now are NOT the people who actually created DAZ 3D. It's very similar to how the people running Disney these days have absolutely nothing to do with Walt and the people who actually created and built the company in the very beginning. Or it's like how Hasbro now owns Wizards of the Coast, and by extension Dungeons and Dragons, and how Hasbro is mismanaging both. DAZ 3D, Disney, and Dungeons and Dragons are not being managed by the people who conceived and built them and actually gave a crap about them but by people who simply acquired them and view them merely as properties to farmed for every last penny that can be squeezed out of the customer.
Also, you may have noticed by now that -- for whatever reason -- DAZ appears to be compelled to do something really, really stupid at least once every other year or so. I think it takes that long for them to forget just how bad the last idea was before they dare to attempt another one. Content encryption, 3D printing, NFTs, targeting game developers with converted store content, this current situation -- God only knows what the next hair-brained idea DAZ pulls out of its butt will be.
Also, you may have noticed by now that -- for whatever reason -- DAZ appears to be compelled to do something really, really stupid at least once every other year or so. I think it takes that long for them to forget just how bad the last idea was before they dare to attempt another one. Content encryption, 3D printing, NFTs, targeting game developers with converted store content, this current situation -- God only knows what the next hair-brained idea DAZ pulls out of its butt will be.
I hear you, but I'm not convinced that this is discriminatory. It's a typical band wagon business model based upon supply and demand. The features you want to use, now have to pay extra for them. Don't want ads in your YouTube? Sorry but pay to remove them. Everyone is jumping on the subscription bandwagon these days, and can be unfair for some loyalists, they feel they'll want to jump ship, feel cheated. But the choice is pay, or don't. And I don't think Tafi cares if you pay them or not, because someone else will, they either know no different or happy to part with their hard earned cash in exchange for convenience. But, it's not discrimination.
REPLY
! REPORT
@Katsuyaki
Ah well that explains it then. Because Tafi have proven themselves completely clueless time and time again. Perhaps they misunderstood the type of people who use DAZ products because one thing is for sure, they obviously DO NOT understand the type of userbase that DAZ has. In that case, I reckon DAZ are finished unless someone has the sense to conclude that DAZ is not suited to the plans that Tafi have for it, and hopefully sell the company back to the original owners.
@russthedutch
The practice absolutely IS discriminatory and for the reason pointed out. And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that they set out to BE discriminatory, but nevertheless the practice IS discriminatory because both myself and others ARE being prevented from having unbroken access to the software. We want to use Mesh Grabber 4 and CANNOT do that simply because we cannot afford the subscription. In order to remove the discrimination, they need to offer a perpetual licence, because then PERSON 2 is able to save the cash and eventually have unbroken access to the software just as PERSON 1 does.
A perpetual licence should be default BY LAW, and subscriptions should only ever be optional, NOT the other way around.
As pointed out, unless PERSON 2 has the same option of unbroken access to the software that PERSON 1 does, then PERSON 2 is being discriminated against. It's abusive, it's PROVABLY discriminatory, it's an insult to the very fabric of society and such practices should result in HUGE, company-crippling fines!
REPLY
! REPORT
russthedutch
Karma: 328
Fri, Dec 20, 2024Perpetual license is being utilised, for the free version. You're free to use the software for as long as you want to, until you want to use features behind their paywall. I'm sorry, but it isn't discrimination. And I stand by that. It's unfair, it's annoying. But they're giving you the freedom to use the free version. Always have. They have invested in updates which they want to claw money back, so they charge us for it. Same as other subscription software. Same as TV. Its a thing of the times. May just have to get over it.
@russthedutch
I'm not talking about the free version of DAZ Studio, I'm talking about the plugin Mesh Grabber 4 which is offered via subscription only, so again, unless you prove me wrong by explaining how PERSON 2 is able to enjoy the same unbroken access to the plugin that PERSON 1 enjoys, you lose the debate.
You keep claiming that it's not discrimination despite it being proven to you that it is. If I'm wrong, then you need to show PERSON 2 how they can acquire unbroken access to the software as PERSON 1 can. You either need to succeed in that request or you lose the debate.
The part you don't understand is that this is NOT a matter of "Either buy it or don't buy it, your choice".
That's NOT what this is about. IT'S ABOUT BEING PREVENTED FROM BUYING IT DUE TO THE DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICE THEY HAVE IN PLACE!
There's a difference, because one is down to CHOICE and the other is down to DISCRIMINATION!
REPLY
! REPORT
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Fri, Dec 20, 2024Discrimination, in its legal and ethical sense, refers to unfair treatment of individuals or groups based on attributes like race, gender, religion, or other protected classes. It is not simply a matter of some individuals being unable to afford a product or service. By your logic, *any* product or service priced beyond the means of some people—luxury cars, branded clothes, or high-end dining—would also be discriminatory.
The inability of "Person 2" to afford a subscription is a function of their financial situation, not the pricing structure itself. By that rationale, even a perpetual license model could be deemed "discriminatory" if its upfront cost is too high for "Person 2" to save for. Pricing is not discrimination; it's market economics.
The inability of "Person 2" to afford a subscription is a function of their financial situation, not the pricing structure itself. By that rationale, even a perpetual license model could be deemed "discriminatory" if its upfront cost is too high for "Person 2" to save for. Pricing is not discrimination; it's market economics.
I just looked at the offer, it's not cheap...
20 bucks a month anyway...
The + :
Geometry Sculptor
Render Queue
The simulation management tool
The - :
Incomprehensible promotion systems (especially for non-English speakers like me who go through a translator)
Perishable token system...
Free characters... Apart from collecting them, I don't see the point.
Pay a subscription to get promotions... Oh yeah, really XD
The software add-ons are interesting, but the system of promotions and content bonuses is a real dump, pay to get discounts and go back to the checkout...
"Promotions on Daz Originals content, for Daz members + PLUS 10% off" (that's what Google Translate tells me)... You need a Master's in International Finance, discounts on discounts on discounts XD I didn't understand anything lol
20 Balles, it's really expensive.
20 bucks a month anyway...
The + :
Geometry Sculptor
Render Queue
The simulation management tool
The - :
Incomprehensible promotion systems (especially for non-English speakers like me who go through a translator)
Perishable token system...
Free characters... Apart from collecting them, I don't see the point.
Pay a subscription to get promotions... Oh yeah, really XD
The software add-ons are interesting, but the system of promotions and content bonuses is a real dump, pay to get discounts and go back to the checkout...
"Promotions on Daz Originals content, for Daz members + PLUS 10% off" (that's what Google Translate tells me)... You need a Master's in International Finance, discounts on discounts on discounts XD I didn't understand anything lol
20 Balles, it's really expensive.
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! REPORT
@Anabran
While clearly not your intention, thanks anyway for confirming that THIS IS DISCRIMINATION BASED ON WEALTH.
- PERSON 1 can afford the plugin.
- PERSON 2 can afford the plugin too (they just need more time to save the cash).
PERSON 2 therefore faces discrimination based on wealth. This is proven because PERSON 2 is perfectly willing to buy unbroken access to the plugin but is being PREVENTED from doing so DUE to the discriminatory system that DAZ have in place (no perpetual license option).
Sincerely, I don't wish to sound rude, but this is taking-up a lot of my time so I will not be repeating myself any further on the matter.
The practice IS discriminatory and needs to be dealt with world-wide, and THAT is a matter of fact!
REPLY
! REPORT
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Fri, Dec 20, 2024No… not "FACT" just one persons opinion
The software subscription model is not inherently discriminatory, unethical, or deserving of fines. It is a practical, flexible pricing strategy that aligns with modern economic realities. While it may not serve every individual's financial circumstances equally, neither do perpetual licenses or any other single model. The market thrives on diversity and innovation, and your draconian prescription for fines would stifle both.
In short, your argument is a hyperbolic misunderstanding, and the real-world implications of your proposed solution would likely harm far more people than the current systems you so vehemently criticize.
The software subscription model is not inherently discriminatory, unethical, or deserving of fines. It is a practical, flexible pricing strategy that aligns with modern economic realities. While it may not serve every individual's financial circumstances equally, neither do perpetual licenses or any other single model. The market thrives on diversity and innovation, and your draconian prescription for fines would stifle both.
In short, your argument is a hyperbolic misunderstanding, and the real-world implications of your proposed solution would likely harm far more people than the current systems you so vehemently criticize.
COMIXIANT
No, it is not merely my opinion, it is a matter of fact as you will evntually come to realise when the ads start appearing with the tag-line ...
Are you a victim of software subscription discrimination?
Why not visit our website to see how much you could be owed?
We operate on a no-win no-fee basis, so what have you got to lose?
This WILL happen, just wait and see!
Karma: 1,836
Fri, Dec 20, 2024No, it is not merely my opinion, it is a matter of fact as you will evntually come to realise when the ads start appearing with the tag-line ...
Are you a victim of software subscription discrimination?
Why not visit our website to see how much you could be owed?
We operate on a no-win no-fee basis, so what have you got to lose?
This WILL happen, just wait and see!
COMIXIANT
Well I gotta tell ya, if that's true then it's going to come as somewhat of a shock to me, because I'm pretty sure I am right!
Karma: 1,836
Fri, Dec 20, 2024Well I gotta tell ya, if that's true then it's going to come as somewhat of a shock to me, because I'm pretty sure I am right!
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Fri, Dec 20, 2024Discrimination has a legal definition and a more technical subjective definition in the common vernacular.
But please, go ahead and try to file a “discriminationcivil suit, in court, against Daz inc. for refusing to sell you a perpetual copy of some silly “meshgrabberplugin
and you will see how wrong you are in your understanding of the word “discrimination
But please, go ahead and try to file a “discriminationcivil suit, in court, against Daz inc. for refusing to sell you a perpetual copy of some silly “meshgrabberplugin
and you will see how wrong you are in your understanding of the word “discrimination
COMIXIANT
No offence intended, but the way you word your posts sometimes makes me it feel as if I'm replying to a spiteful child!
I take it you have no idea how serious discrimination of ANY kind is, let alone a practice SO discriminatory that it REMOVES the ability of people in a lower class of wealth to access a product in the same way that those of a higher class of wealth do.
So with respect, I've asked time and time again to be proved wrong, and time and time again no one has succeeded in doing so.
So for the FINAL time., show me (without a perpetual licence option in place) how PERSON 2 can achieve the same UNBROKEN ACCESS to Mesh Grabber 4 just as PERSON 1 can!.
You CANNOT do that BECAUSE the system they have in place is DISCRIMINATORY.
With respect, I'm not going through another day of debating this with you or with anyone else, so for those reading this and staying quiet, please understand that my absence from posting further is purely down to it taking too much time.
FACT - They they will NEVER prove me wrong.
So by all means, listen to these types who attempt to defend this tyrannical BS, i but always be VERY vigilant and note that EVERY TIME THEY REPLY they will fail to answer the question that I keep putting to them. The reason they keep failing is BECAUSE the system IS discriminatory.and therefore they CANNOT prove otherwise.
It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to prove that this pracice is not discriminatory, when it is!
Karma: 1,836
Sat, Dec 21, 2024No offence intended, but the way you word your posts sometimes makes me it feel as if I'm replying to a spiteful child!
I take it you have no idea how serious discrimination of ANY kind is, let alone a practice SO discriminatory that it REMOVES the ability of people in a lower class of wealth to access a product in the same way that those of a higher class of wealth do.
So with respect, I've asked time and time again to be proved wrong, and time and time again no one has succeeded in doing so.
So for the FINAL time., show me (without a perpetual licence option in place) how PERSON 2 can achieve the same UNBROKEN ACCESS to Mesh Grabber 4 just as PERSON 1 can!.
You CANNOT do that BECAUSE the system they have in place is DISCRIMINATORY.
With respect, I'm not going through another day of debating this with you or with anyone else, so for those reading this and staying quiet, please understand that my absence from posting further is purely down to it taking too much time.
FACT - They they will NEVER prove me wrong.
So by all means, listen to these types who attempt to defend this tyrannical BS, i but always be VERY vigilant and note that EVERY TIME THEY REPLY they will fail to answer the question that I keep putting to them. The reason they keep failing is BECAUSE the system IS discriminatory.and therefore they CANNOT prove otherwise.
It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to prove that this pracice is not discriminatory, when it is!
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sat, Dec 21, 2024Wrong again amazingly WRONG in fact
you are confusing being too dusty & broke to afford $20 per month, with
a crime of “discriminationbeing committed somehow.
Daz inc is a commercial company operating in the state of Utah in the capitalist nation called the United States.
In such western economies
software companies invest substantial resources in development, support, and maintenance. Subscription models allow them to sustain these costs while maintaining a steady revenue stream.
The existence of diverse pricing structures across the software market underscores the fact that consumers can vote with their wallets. If perpetual licenses are truly a necessity, companies will provide them to meet demand or risk losing market share.
Labeling subscription models as “discriminationbetrays a misunderstanding of ethical principles. Ethical business practices involve transparency, fairness, and adherence to EXISTING laws—not pandering to every broke low income individual's financial constraints.
The choice to adopt subscription models is not “discrimination; it is a business decision shaped by market realities.
You have the option to get the mesh grabber plugin for Daz studio..PAY THE MONTHLY SUB!!
Just like I am required to pay $300 per year for my indie license of Autodesk Maya and there is NO perpetual option.
those who can’t afford the prices of certain things in a capitalist market
will have to find alternatives.
$20 per month is not that much ( too most people)
but my biggest criticism is the claw back feature that deactivates any Daz premium content if you quit paying. This is still NOT “discriminationbut very greedy & cynical
of DAZ and will only drive more still image portrait & pinup artists over to generative AI where you can keep ALL of your AI images even
when you stop paying the monthly access fee.
The consumers , with the means to pay, will decide who is providing acceptable value for monthly subscription services.
We shall see if Daz’s new scheme works out for them or not.
you are confusing being too dusty & broke to afford $20 per month, with
a crime of “discriminationbeing committed somehow.
Daz inc is a commercial company operating in the state of Utah in the capitalist nation called the United States.
In such western economies
software companies invest substantial resources in development, support, and maintenance. Subscription models allow them to sustain these costs while maintaining a steady revenue stream.
The existence of diverse pricing structures across the software market underscores the fact that consumers can vote with their wallets. If perpetual licenses are truly a necessity, companies will provide them to meet demand or risk losing market share.
Labeling subscription models as “discriminationbetrays a misunderstanding of ethical principles. Ethical business practices involve transparency, fairness, and adherence to EXISTING laws—not pandering to every broke low income individual's financial constraints.
The choice to adopt subscription models is not “discrimination; it is a business decision shaped by market realities.
You have the option to get the mesh grabber plugin for Daz studio..PAY THE MONTHLY SUB!!
Just like I am required to pay $300 per year for my indie license of Autodesk Maya and there is NO perpetual option.
those who can’t afford the prices of certain things in a capitalist market
will have to find alternatives.
$20 per month is not that much ( too most people)
but my biggest criticism is the claw back feature that deactivates any Daz premium content if you quit paying. This is still NOT “discriminationbut very greedy & cynical
of DAZ and will only drive more still image portrait & pinup artists over to generative AI where you can keep ALL of your AI images even
when you stop paying the monthly access fee.
The consumers , with the means to pay, will decide who is providing acceptable value for monthly subscription services.
We shall see if Daz’s new scheme works out for them or not.
COMIXIANT
@ALL
I think I'd be banned if I were to reply to this Anabran character in the manner I feel is justified, so it's best that I don't. Needless to say I'm having to practice some SERIOUS restraint here after reading that "i'm alright Jack" pile of BS he just wrote!
But do please read carefully what he wrote, be careful to take note of the sentiment and words used, and then note the following:
- He continues to fail to answer the simple question put to him (this will always happen because the practice is indeed discriminatory).
- He continues to prove that he doesn't understand the difference between a person's ABILITY to pay and being PREVENTED from doing so.
If the world were allowed to operate in the manner he feels acceptable, then being less wealthy would mean that the "broke ass" among us can never enjoy the luxuries that the affluent enjoy. Thankfully, that's not the way an ethical world works, because the "broke ass" among us ... well ... we have one last hope up our sleeve, don't we?
Because what the "broke ass" among us do (and have always had to do) is save our cash over time so that eventually we too can afford the luxuries that the more affluent get to enjoy if we so wish. That was of course until corporate a-holes like Adobe started normalising the discriminatory practice of REPLACING perpetual purchase with subscription.
Dear forum, the practice is indeed discriminatory, and I for one cannot wait to see all who enforce it being hammered to death with the fines they thoroughly deserve!
Karma: 1,836
Sat, Dec 21, 2024@ALL
I think I'd be banned if I were to reply to this Anabran character in the manner I feel is justified, so it's best that I don't. Needless to say I'm having to practice some SERIOUS restraint here after reading that "i'm alright Jack" pile of BS he just wrote!
But do please read carefully what he wrote, be careful to take note of the sentiment and words used, and then note the following:
- He continues to fail to answer the simple question put to him (this will always happen because the practice is indeed discriminatory).
- He continues to prove that he doesn't understand the difference between a person's ABILITY to pay and being PREVENTED from doing so.
If the world were allowed to operate in the manner he feels acceptable, then being less wealthy would mean that the "broke ass" among us can never enjoy the luxuries that the affluent enjoy. Thankfully, that's not the way an ethical world works, because the "broke ass" among us ... well ... we have one last hope up our sleeve, don't we?
Because what the "broke ass" among us do (and have always had to do) is save our cash over time so that eventually we too can afford the luxuries that the more affluent get to enjoy if we so wish. That was of course until corporate a-holes like Adobe started normalising the discriminatory practice of REPLACING perpetual purchase with subscription.
Dear forum, the practice is indeed discriminatory, and I for one cannot wait to see all who enforce it being hammered to death with the fines they thoroughly deserve!
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sat, Dec 21, 2024There will be no “finesbr>you are wrong…yet again LOL!!
There is no iscriminationbr>no one ,who understand basic free market economics, believes or agrees with you.
Some Daz users will pay the $20 rent
some will not.
some animators/designers/viewers will pay the monthly rent for Autodesk,
Maxon
Adobe
Netflix
Amazon prime
Disney+
etc.
Many will not pay for a variety or reasons including begin too POOR, but that is the reality of the world ,always has been.
Mesh grabber is one plugin.
There will still be Daz content available in the Daz market as well as Renderhub Renderosity ,even Flipped normals now.
none requiring the monthly Daz rentware fees.
The market position of DAZ ( still image fantasy art/illustration) is being be made moot by generative AI anyway.
Calm down
There is no iscriminationbr>no one ,who understand basic free market economics, believes or agrees with you.
Some Daz users will pay the $20 rent
some will not.
some animators/designers/viewers will pay the monthly rent for Autodesk,
Maxon
Adobe
Netflix
Amazon prime
Disney+
etc.
Many will not pay for a variety or reasons including begin too POOR, but that is the reality of the world ,always has been.
Mesh grabber is one plugin.
There will still be Daz content available in the Daz market as well as Renderhub Renderosity ,even Flipped normals now.
none requiring the monthly Daz rentware fees.
The market position of DAZ ( still image fantasy art/illustration) is being be made moot by generative AI anyway.
Calm down
guy91600
Karma: 12,835
Sat, Dec 21, 2024Reading your last exchanges I simply understood that the word "discrimination" does not have the same meaning for both of you. This explains your endless exchanges and if neither of you gives in you can continue for 10 years!
COMIXIANT
I'm still waiting for you to answer the question put to you, but I'm sure that by now we all know why it hasn't happened.
And by the way, did you see my recent thread on here about Marmoset? Maybe you should, because I'm about to drop hundreds on purchasing a perpetual licence of Marmoset, so that alone blows your nonsense about inability to afford right out of the water!
And here's the thing:
The ONLY reason I can afford the high price of Marmoset in this "Capitalist World" you speak of, yet I cannot afford a mere Mesh Grabber 4 plugin, is BECAUSE Marmoset is a perpetual licence, but no such option exits for Mesh Grabber 4.
I would not be able to purchase Marmoset either if it were subscription. In effect, DAZ are discriminating against people who do not earn enough to be able to sustain a subscription, therefore the practice is proven discriminatory on the grounds that it ONLY effects the less wealthy since only those who can afford the subsciption can have UNBROKEN access to it.
The operative word being "ONLY", because it ONLY effects the less wealthy whereas a perpetual licence creates NO such discrimination!
Now if I really wanted to, I could buy a luxury car. It would take an outrageous amount of time for me to save the cash to buy one, but the point is I could still buy one because despite my income, I'm not being discriminated against by the manufacturer refusing to sell me the car outright. DAZ on the other hand ARE refusing to sell Mesh Grabber 4 outright, which is discriminatory since it PREVENTS those on lower incomes from purchasing unbroken access to the plugin - AND THIS WOULD NOT BE THE CASE WITH A PERPETUAL LICENSE.
As for "Calm Down", you clealy have no concept of how damaging these toxic practices are to the very fabric of society, and your freedom..
Karma: 1,836
Sat, Dec 21, 2024I'm still waiting for you to answer the question put to you, but I'm sure that by now we all know why it hasn't happened.
And by the way, did you see my recent thread on here about Marmoset? Maybe you should, because I'm about to drop hundreds on purchasing a perpetual licence of Marmoset, so that alone blows your nonsense about inability to afford right out of the water!
And here's the thing:
The ONLY reason I can afford the high price of Marmoset in this "Capitalist World" you speak of, yet I cannot afford a mere Mesh Grabber 4 plugin, is BECAUSE Marmoset is a perpetual licence, but no such option exits for Mesh Grabber 4.
I would not be able to purchase Marmoset either if it were subscription. In effect, DAZ are discriminating against people who do not earn enough to be able to sustain a subscription, therefore the practice is proven discriminatory on the grounds that it ONLY effects the less wealthy since only those who can afford the subsciption can have UNBROKEN access to it.
The operative word being "ONLY", because it ONLY effects the less wealthy whereas a perpetual licence creates NO such discrimination!
Now if I really wanted to, I could buy a luxury car. It would take an outrageous amount of time for me to save the cash to buy one, but the point is I could still buy one because despite my income, I'm not being discriminated against by the manufacturer refusing to sell me the car outright. DAZ on the other hand ARE refusing to sell Mesh Grabber 4 outright, which is discriminatory since it PREVENTS those on lower incomes from purchasing unbroken access to the plugin - AND THIS WOULD NOT BE THE CASE WITH A PERPETUAL LICENSE.
As for "Calm Down", you clealy have no concept of how damaging these toxic practices are to the very fabric of society, and your freedom..
COMIXIANT
@guy91600
Well hey, he's hanging with the best of 'em if he thinks he'll get one over on me, lol!!!
Karma: 1,836
Sat, Dec 21, 2024@guy91600
Well hey, he's hanging with the best of 'em if he thinks he'll get one over on me, lol!!!
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sat, Dec 21, 2024I fully understand the legal meaning of discrimination as well as the broader
linguistic meaning.
We all technically “Discriminate’
in our discretionary life choices
There is a clearly defined forms of illegal discrimination which would indeed result in fines and other legal remedies by the prevailing government
under the Civli rights act etc.
The suggestion that Daz or other American software companies should be fined for not offering perpetual licenses is an IDEOLOGICAL and emotionally gratuitous assertion
undisturbed by the reality of the current economic system in the economy where Daz, Adobe, Autodesk etc operates .
linguistic meaning.
We all technically “Discriminate’
in our discretionary life choices
There is a clearly defined forms of illegal discrimination which would indeed result in fines and other legal remedies by the prevailing government
under the Civli rights act etc.
The suggestion that Daz or other American software companies should be fined for not offering perpetual licenses is an IDEOLOGICAL and emotionally gratuitous assertion
undisturbed by the reality of the current economic system in the economy where Daz, Adobe, Autodesk etc operates .
COMIXIANT
Oh well, that's another night wasted, but then again maybe not - I mean who really knows?
I do worry about Anabran after some of his comments, but still think he's kinda cool.
I'm off to watch a movie now on rumble.com cause I found a great free 80s Horror Channel on there recently:
https://rumble.com/c/Takemetothe80s
Haven't decided which one to watch, but I'm definitely attracted to the cover design of " Muchies" so I suppose it's that one for tonight!
I only hope it's as good as Anabran's take on the world, cause that would be some real 'hide behind the sofa' stuff and no mistake!
Karma: 1,836
Sat, Dec 21, 2024Oh well, that's another night wasted, but then again maybe not - I mean who really knows?
I do worry about Anabran after some of his comments, but still think he's kinda cool.
I'm off to watch a movie now on rumble.com cause I found a great free 80s Horror Channel on there recently:
https://rumble.com/c/Takemetothe80s
Haven't decided which one to watch, but I'm definitely attracted to the cover design of " Muchies" so I suppose it's that one for tonight!
I only hope it's as good as Anabran's take on the world, cause that would be some real 'hide behind the sofa' stuff and no mistake!
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Sat, Dec 21, 2024Marmouset tool bag is a very powerful content creation software suite.
Mesh grabber is a primitive vertex editing tool that is only really useful to fix poke through with poorly conforming clothing:
“The Mesh Grabber plugin allows you to manipulate any object geometry from within Daz Studio without having to resort to external modeling software.
It provides a new tool in your "Tools" menu which allows you to select and then grab geometry directly in your viewport. It is much easier to use and control than the D-Formers built into Daz Studio. It has been designed to work like Blender's "Grab" tool. But do not worry if you don't know Blender, the tool is very easy to use.
Your geometry changes are automatically saved with your scene files.
The possibilities for this are endless:
You can now quickly fix clothing poke-through without having to search for a morph that might fix it.
You can change any detail in your favorite characters. Give them bigger noses! Make elf ears!br>
I actually have version 3 of this plugin for Daz studio and frankly it kinda sucks compared to just learning how to edit meshes in Blender or compared to Poser’s “morph brushI have in My old seat of Poser 12 or the mesh edit tools we have in Reallusion Character creator
hard to believe that this lame product is what you would choose to lay bare your lack of knowledge about the difference between commercial business payment models and basic civil rights
How odd.
anyway enjoy your movie
Mesh grabber is a primitive vertex editing tool that is only really useful to fix poke through with poorly conforming clothing:
“The Mesh Grabber plugin allows you to manipulate any object geometry from within Daz Studio without having to resort to external modeling software.
It provides a new tool in your "Tools" menu which allows you to select and then grab geometry directly in your viewport. It is much easier to use and control than the D-Formers built into Daz Studio. It has been designed to work like Blender's "Grab" tool. But do not worry if you don't know Blender, the tool is very easy to use.
Your geometry changes are automatically saved with your scene files.
The possibilities for this are endless:
You can now quickly fix clothing poke-through without having to search for a morph that might fix it.
You can change any detail in your favorite characters. Give them bigger noses! Make elf ears!br>
I actually have version 3 of this plugin for Daz studio and frankly it kinda sucks compared to just learning how to edit meshes in Blender or compared to Poser’s “morph brushI have in My old seat of Poser 12 or the mesh edit tools we have in Reallusion Character creator
hard to believe that this lame product is what you would choose to lay bare your lack of knowledge about the difference between commercial business payment models and basic civil rights
How odd.
anyway enjoy your movie
I have Mesh Grabber 3 but I don't use it because it lacks scale, symmetry, sculpting and cannot edit strand-based hair. The only thing I would personally use the new Mesh Grabber for is to correct awkward looking joints and to move hair strands around etc. And yes, I do all of that in blender anyway but sometimes it's just better to be able to edit directly in the DAZ viewport.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm complaining about the situation purely for my own needs, but that's not the case at all. Of course I want to buy it and indeed would use it if I could buy it. But it's not the end of the world and like you said, there's always blender anyway.
The reason I'm complaining is because the practice is discriminatory and they shouldn't be allowed to do it. It's quite amusing some of the stuff you write, because there you are thinking I'm complaining due to lack of funds, yet I just purchased a perpetual licence of Plasticity for hard surface modeling on Black Friday, and I'll soon I'll be purchasing Marmoset Toolbag for texturing. Both Plasticity and Marmoset are perpetual licences and are both are highly respected in their field, so I personally have nothing to worry about - this isn't about me.
I speak-up mainly for the masses out there who are either too afraid to speak-up themselves for whatever reason, or are not educated enough to know when they're being screwed-over by unethical companies and their toxic, discriminatory practices.
The movie was great by the way, thanks for asking!
It wasn't at all what I was expecting. It was actually a comedy-take on Gremlins with a few sexy shots dotted throughout the movie for good measure. But yeah, those Munchies, they're way cooler than Gremlins. They even like to read porn mags and are not afraid to do a spot of 'up-skirting' on the golf course once they realise what a woman is, lol!!!
Vicious little buggers they are once triggered, but anyway, here's a direct link if anyone fancies a cheeky, light-hearted giggle this Christmas:
https://rumble.com/v5u7gqq-munchies-1987.html
Well it's been real dude, but it's well past my bed-time now so I shall bid you goodnight.
Gotta get my beauty sleep in or I'll be even uglier in the morning!
REPLY
! REPORT
I wish I'd found this thread sooner. I signed up for Premier 2 days ago; upgraded from plus, which I tend to use regularly. Not only was I disappointed with the program's offerings (the post conversion tool doesn't work for me for example) but I'd somehow missed that the content goes away. Admittedly the other half was on the phone when I was upgraded reading the material while I did this with a migraine (because I'm SO SMART with one of those!) but... do wish I'd known about that. Premier so far is NOT worth the money, considering I already own Mesh Grabber and am having to export out something I did in their very clunky geometry editor to make a morph anyway. Might as well just load Blender after all that. I thought this would be a good thing for my comic book creating. Har har. Hilarious.
But downgrading isn't an option, it turns out - which I know someone in the thread had alluded to it. I wasn't sure if that meant what I thought that meant. It meant what I thought it meant. I just had to reach out to the sales team to see if I can be put back on plus. At least this gives me an option to explain why. I used to be in communication a lot with the tech team a long time ago.
I still use PWToon, 3Delight, and even Genesis. I think Genesis 9 has a lot of potential, but in the beginning I ended up making my own set of poses to be able to transfer morphs back and forth... and then ended up not transferring my comic characters up because of 9's stupid eyes. Too hard to work with. Too hard to color. Too complicated for a tiny user like me who wants to focus on storytelling, not learning a new fancy 3D thing ever week just to keep up. I tried. I don't know what I was overlooking. TBH I stopped caring and went back to what made sense. Maybe I'll try again in the future.
I have no interest in my content being subscription only. I even still use CS2 (and yes I own that legally). I have Painter 2020, and when I learned Corel was starting to go that way - after they'd publicly said they NEVER WOULD - the upgrading stopped there.
It's becoming a constant source of concern that there will come a time I can't run DAZ, and I have some specific settings I can't recreate elsewhere.
But downgrading isn't an option, it turns out - which I know someone in the thread had alluded to it. I wasn't sure if that meant what I thought that meant. It meant what I thought it meant. I just had to reach out to the sales team to see if I can be put back on plus. At least this gives me an option to explain why. I used to be in communication a lot with the tech team a long time ago.
I still use PWToon, 3Delight, and even Genesis. I think Genesis 9 has a lot of potential, but in the beginning I ended up making my own set of poses to be able to transfer morphs back and forth... and then ended up not transferring my comic characters up because of 9's stupid eyes. Too hard to work with. Too hard to color. Too complicated for a tiny user like me who wants to focus on storytelling, not learning a new fancy 3D thing ever week just to keep up. I tried. I don't know what I was overlooking. TBH I stopped caring and went back to what made sense. Maybe I'll try again in the future.
I have no interest in my content being subscription only. I even still use CS2 (and yes I own that legally). I have Painter 2020, and when I learned Corel was starting to go that way - after they'd publicly said they NEVER WOULD - the upgrading stopped there.
It's becoming a constant source of concern that there will come a time I can't run DAZ, and I have some specific settings I can't recreate elsewhere.
REPLY
! REPORT
I use the daz basic , i pay for nothing , unless i see something in the sale then i may buy it but its not often . I have hundreds of free things for Genesis 8 . Which is a super versatile character. With lots of skins and accessories.
Now i have acquired a few things for Genesis 9 , who you can do so much more in way of facial expressions . But there's not that many nice skins
they do tend to be a bit tomato looking. Plus i dont like the idea of well if you pay monthly you get extra privileges ( not every one can afford this) So i will be sticking to the free version no paid memberships .
Now i have acquired a few things for Genesis 9 , who you can do so much more in way of facial expressions . But there's not that many nice skins
they do tend to be a bit tomato looking. Plus i dont like the idea of well if you pay monthly you get extra privileges ( not every one can afford this) So i will be sticking to the free version no paid memberships .
REPLY
! REPORT
I don't need anything that comes with Premiere and plan on letting my Daz+ expire at the end of March. My plan now is just throw the things I want into my wishlist then pay 10 bucks for Daz+ the month they have their PA sale, assuming they still plan on having it.
REPLY
! REPORT
It's been three months now, and the comments are still something like 5% "Heck, yeah, I'm in", 10~15% "I'll give it a shot", and the remaining 80% or so split between "Meh" and "No fucking way". I can only hope that people are actually purchasing (or not) in a way that matches the comments they're leaving. DAZ has got to take it in their revenue stream -- and hard -- before they can be compelled to change course.
REPLY
! REPORT
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Fri, Jan 10The people who can afford it will bend the knee and pay the rent out of FOMO.
The people who refuse to pay for Premier likely will not boycott the Daz market entirely in “protestas there are still many items and useful Daz studio features not locked behind the new paywall
So overall this will very likely be a net gain for Daz.
The people who refuse to pay for Premier likely will not boycott the Daz market entirely in “protestas there are still many items and useful Daz studio features not locked behind the new paywall
So overall this will very likely be a net gain for Daz.
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Mon, Jan 20I have to disagree. My read of the situation seems to be almost entirely opposite to yours, assuming that people were being truthful in their postings. It sounds like most people were already at their spending limits, that what DAZ is offering for the price they're charging isn't a good value (especially for people like me who already have extensive libraries), and that the only real draw are the paywalled content and features of DAZ Studio Pro (which only a relatively small percentage of power users are likely to make full use of, and which you lose access to if your subscription expires).
"The people who can afford it will bend the knee and pay the rent out of FOMO." -- I CAN afford it, I'm NOT bending the knee, I'm NOT afraid of missing out, and I'm seeing a lot of other people say the exact same thing. I've picked up a bunch of freebies, but I haven't spent a dime at DAZ since this all kicked off, and I had a $100+-a-week habit there prior to that.
"The people who refuse to pay for Premier likely will not boycott the Daz market entirely in “protestas " -- I AM refusing to pay for Premier. I'm just sticking around to to download my library and to mine the site for freebies, and also to see how the whole situation plays out. What I'm NOT doing is actually spending money there.
"still many items and useful Daz studio features not locked behind the new paywall" -- Perhaps, but will they be enough to increase sales or at least maintain them at pre-existing levels? Again, it sounds like the changes DAZ have made has chased off a large number of users or at least forced them to scale back, and I doubt that there are enough new users coming on board to replace them.
"So overall this will very likely be a net gain for Daz." -- Bankruptcy within two years if they don't course-correct. Blender has never been easier to use, and A.I. is eating everyone's lunch and will only get better and that quickly. Even assuming that DAZ DIDN'T go out of its way to piss off its user base periodically, they'd still have a struggle to survive ahead of them in the face of such competition.
"The people who can afford it will bend the knee and pay the rent out of FOMO." -- I CAN afford it, I'm NOT bending the knee, I'm NOT afraid of missing out, and I'm seeing a lot of other people say the exact same thing. I've picked up a bunch of freebies, but I haven't spent a dime at DAZ since this all kicked off, and I had a $100+-a-week habit there prior to that.
"The people who refuse to pay for Premier likely will not boycott the Daz market entirely in “protestas " -- I AM refusing to pay for Premier. I'm just sticking around to to download my library and to mine the site for freebies, and also to see how the whole situation plays out. What I'm NOT doing is actually spending money there.
"still many items and useful Daz studio features not locked behind the new paywall" -- Perhaps, but will they be enough to increase sales or at least maintain them at pre-existing levels? Again, it sounds like the changes DAZ have made has chased off a large number of users or at least forced them to scale back, and I doubt that there are enough new users coming on board to replace them.
"So overall this will very likely be a net gain for Daz." -- Bankruptcy within two years if they don't course-correct. Blender has never been easier to use, and A.I. is eating everyone's lunch and will only get better and that quickly. Even assuming that DAZ DIDN'T go out of its way to piss off its user base periodically, they'd still have a struggle to survive ahead of them in the face of such competition.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Mon, Jan 20Blender wont be a factor in any future Daz decline for many reasons.
But as the majority of the Daz user base create’s still images of attractive people, then generative AI is what will steal away the Daz user base and destroy Daz’s commercial market.
of tha,t I am certain.
But as the majority of the Daz user base create’s still images of attractive people, then generative AI is what will steal away the Daz user base and destroy Daz’s commercial market.
of tha,t I am certain.
COMIXIANT
This is kinda what I was getting in my initial post in the thread where I stated that Tafi don't appear to understand what the Daz user-base is really about. I suppose it could go either way, because on the one hand Anabran is right about most Daz users' obsession with creating stills of attractive people. But on the other hand I hope he's wrong and that Tafi will realise that despite A.I, most Daz users prefer direct control over what they're creating, and that's not what A.I. gives you.
Then of of course we need to remember that regardless of popularity, there will always be a place for traditional 3D software such as Daz Studio and Blender, and there'll always be a market for it. Ironically, the death A.I. is likely to bring to the lesser-known 3D packages, could in fact increase the popularity of software like Daz Studio and Blender as those users move over and insist on avoiding A.I.
So I don't see Daz Studio disappearing no matter what happens with A.I., but I do see problems on the horizon for the developers and I suspect that Studio might pass through a few owners before settling down again. Personally I wish Tafi would sell Daz Studio back to the original Daz peeps, but what can you do. I was quite fond of the original Daz team. They were a business of course, but there was also a feeling of humanity about them and it generally felt as if they understood that business is not all about money, but also ensuring that your userbase feels at least some bond with the company, and that good business is about give as well as take..
Karma: 1,836
Mon, Jan 20This is kinda what I was getting in my initial post in the thread where I stated that Tafi don't appear to understand what the Daz user-base is really about. I suppose it could go either way, because on the one hand Anabran is right about most Daz users' obsession with creating stills of attractive people. But on the other hand I hope he's wrong and that Tafi will realise that despite A.I, most Daz users prefer direct control over what they're creating, and that's not what A.I. gives you.
Then of of course we need to remember that regardless of popularity, there will always be a place for traditional 3D software such as Daz Studio and Blender, and there'll always be a market for it. Ironically, the death A.I. is likely to bring to the lesser-known 3D packages, could in fact increase the popularity of software like Daz Studio and Blender as those users move over and insist on avoiding A.I.
So I don't see Daz Studio disappearing no matter what happens with A.I., but I do see problems on the horizon for the developers and I suspect that Studio might pass through a few owners before settling down again. Personally I wish Tafi would sell Daz Studio back to the original Daz peeps, but what can you do. I was quite fond of the original Daz team. They were a business of course, but there was also a feeling of humanity about them and it generally felt as if they understood that business is not all about money, but also ensuring that your userbase feels at least some bond with the company, and that good business is about give as well as take..
Katsuyaki
Karma: 2,587
Fri, Jan 24Last week, I was going through DAZ's YouTube videos and found the one from a couple of years ago that was about the history of DAZ. Notably missing in that video was any mention about Tafi being brought on as investors by DAZ's original creators, who were then shoved out of their own company in a little less than a year (if I'm remembering those events correctly). Revisionist history or a lie of omission -- which interpretation is it?
Anyways, I think DAZ is about to get a little taste of the Poser experience, in that, just as Poser was once the dominant hobbyist 3D platform only to be finally defeated by DAZ Studio, DAZ is now set to be defeated by A.I. And just as Poser hasn't entirely faded away due to DAZ's dominance, DAZ also probably won't entirely fade away due to A.I., but it will also probably become just as irrelevant.
Anyways, I think DAZ is about to get a little taste of the Poser experience, in that, just as Poser was once the dominant hobbyist 3D platform only to be finally defeated by DAZ Studio, DAZ is now set to be defeated by A.I. And just as Poser hasn't entirely faded away due to DAZ's dominance, DAZ also probably won't entirely fade away due to A.I., but it will also probably become just as irrelevant.
Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Fri, Jan 24I agree completely.
DAZ may able to linger on with a static user base of die hard loyalists
(as poser is now doing), but Daz’s days of growth are likely over.
AI is not only beating Daz studio Iray in terms of variety and quality but
accessibility.
you do not need a modern PC with a NVIDIA GPU to create hundreds of images
per day with AI.
Only an internet connect device is required as all of the image generation is done online.
google's AI is literally built into my top end Samsung Galaxy S24 ultra I can generate images on demand anywhere while text messaging or goofing about social media.
This is where the young generation of people needing Art& illustration are living.
maintaining massive local libraries with hundred of gigabytes of Daz content on some expensive local PC,
only to have it become mostly useless if you “upgradeto the latest Genesis model to the will soon be a thing of the past.
DAZ may able to linger on with a static user base of die hard loyalists
(as poser is now doing), but Daz’s days of growth are likely over.
AI is not only beating Daz studio Iray in terms of variety and quality but
accessibility.
you do not need a modern PC with a NVIDIA GPU to create hundreds of images
per day with AI.
Only an internet connect device is required as all of the image generation is done online.
google's AI is literally built into my top end Samsung Galaxy S24 ultra I can generate images on demand anywhere while text messaging or goofing about social media.
This is where the young generation of people needing Art& illustration are living.
maintaining massive local libraries with hundred of gigabytes of Daz content on some expensive local PC,
only to have it become mostly useless if you “upgradeto the latest Genesis model to the will soon be a thing of the past.
Have been a poser user since the 1990s
I was a hard core Bryce user back then as well.
Think too many people look back on the Dan Farr era of Daz
with heartfelt nostalgia as some golden age of Daz but I was there and remember it well.
Daz branched off from a company called Zygote who created the original Poser 3-4 native Characters. (see poser 3 male below)
Daz provided higher quality Characters for poser but had no actual platform of their own making Poser the single point of failure in their entire business model.
After poser was passed through the hands of multiple owners and nearly died Daz has little choice but to develop their own software as software platform the host their commercial content
Tafi is a total mystery to me TBH
https://maketafi.com/
you visit their web site and they seem to be advertising a completely different set of 3D Character tools with some offer for you to join their beta for their AI based text to 3D character tool (which I suspect is utter vaporware.)
On their "about us" page they are still banging on about Web3 and NFTs.
honestly it as almost as if Tafi is sort of fake shell company
created for tax purposes.
I was a hard core Bryce user back then as well.
Think too many people look back on the Dan Farr era of Daz
with heartfelt nostalgia as some golden age of Daz but I was there and remember it well.
Daz branched off from a company called Zygote who created the original Poser 3-4 native Characters. (see poser 3 male below)
Daz provided higher quality Characters for poser but had no actual platform of their own making Poser the single point of failure in their entire business model.
After poser was passed through the hands of multiple owners and nearly died Daz has little choice but to develop their own software as software platform the host their commercial content
Tafi is a total mystery to me TBH
https://maketafi.com/
you visit their web site and they seem to be advertising a completely different set of 3D Character tools with some offer for you to join their beta for their AI based text to 3D character tool (which I suspect is utter vaporware.)
On their "about us" page they are still banging on about Web3 and NFTs.
honestly it as almost as if Tafi is sort of fake shell company
created for tax purposes.
REPLY
! REPORT
Well that explains a heck of a lot!
I detected some time ago that there was something very different about Daz in more recent years. I mean hands up, I've had an extraordinary amount of bad luck trying to get Daz Studio to simply do things that it's meant to do. I've lost count of the amount of times I've reluctantly ditched Daz Studio due to issues I can't work around, and to be honest it looks as if today I'm going to have to ditch it for the final time!
Still haven't received a reply to my ticket about the colour cast through transparency that has appeared from nowhere, nor about the broken emission function. As per usual the problem decided to make itself known AFTER purchasing a bunch of content, and that is content I cannot make use of due to the issue I'm having!
It worked before and it should work now, and frankly I'm not prepared to ditch my beloved AMD card (which handles like a boss in every other scenario) just to appease Daz and their NVIDIA cock-sucking lunacy, when they should have chosen a renederer that works equally well on BOTH brands of GPU.
If they've not offered me a fix by close today, I'll be going direct to PayPal and demanding a refund on every purchase I just made. When I buy characters, figures and clothes for Daz studio FROM Daz, then their is NO excuse for me having to tolerate tinted bands of colour on the skin and I won't be doing so. I'm still fuming from a previous battle with their tech support which at one point felt as if they were suggesting that I were up to something. In the end PayPal had to step in and refund me!
Since I'm on a low income, I cannot afford to be buying tons of Daz content bit by bit, because doing so removes the benefit of accumulated discounts and each separate purchase lands me with both a purchase fee and an exchange fee in addition to the product itself. In other words if I don't put the cash aside and buy in bulk when there are sales on (and make maximum use of the Token sytem), then it would end up costing me THREE TIMES the amount I would pay if I had not done it that way. The problem comes when I then come across a show-stopping problem with Daz Studio and realise I cannot make use of it. Asking for refunds on lots of content that had to be purchased in bulk makes them weary, and I do undertand that, but what Daz need to understand is that if I were a thief then I woudn't have paid for the damn stuff in the first place!
The ironic thing about it all is that if I wanted to, I could visit a site that contains every product available on Daz, Renderosity and RenderHub, and download any product I wanted to for free. I'm an honest bloke with sound ethics, so I don't do that. I actually PAY for my content and this is something Daz need to remember whenever they doubt a PAYING customer's sincerity!
You can only ever find yourself in the position of needing a refund IF you were honest enough to pay for the damn thing in the first place! But this has happened multiple times now (and is about to happen again from the looks of it), so what they should really be asking themselves, is why?
Daz Studio has gotten far too flaky in recent years. And the issue I'm facing now, I mean how on earth am I supposed to use the product when it's doing that? I obviously CANNOT use it like that, just as I couldn't use dForce clothing with those damn air bubbles underneath! Just as I couldn't deal with a download manager that did no such thing and reset the download on each fail!
I'm speaking out loud here (and I don't want a reply to it), but nevertheless it has to be said and I'm REALLY sorry to hear about the original Daz peeps being pushed out of their own business, wow, I had no idea about that!
REPLY
! REPORT
Sorry Anabran, I deleted my post so I could fix some typos, and you posted inbetween.
I think the A.I. thing you talk about is probably to do with that A.I. thing on the Daz site.
As for Poser, sadly it's gone the way I always thought it would under Bondware. All they needed to do to save Poser is give the viewport a live PBR renderer like EEVEE, and give the software a better animation interface so that the live viewport can be made good use of. Instead, they have doubled-down on doing precisely what everyone was telling them NOT to do!
The result is it still lacks a live PBR viewport. It still has an animation interface from times gone by. They still continue to develop new figures that no one wants. And just in case the latest figure being a forseeable flop was not enough, they even doubled-down and relased a MKII version.
I reckon their only chance now is to offer Poser for free under a custom licence. One that grants the same freedoms as Open Source, but with the provision that removal of the Renderosity Store is forbidden, as is the addition of other stores. That way, as with Blender, they gather a large audience due to it being free. Poser gets the sort of development it's been gagging for for decades now, and they still get to keep Renderosity as the only store that's built-in to the software!
Common sense alone should tell Bondware that given the alternative, why on earth would you ignore such an opportinity as that when you have the power to make it happen? So to me it's an absolute no-brainer as to what Bondware should do with Poser. But if that idea were actually put to them, they would likely see red instead of opportunity.
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Anabran
Karma: 2,559
Fri, Jan 24The AI image generator on the main daz site is just a generic bare bones version of the open source engine from stability .
It has nothing to do with the text to 3D Model thing showcased once by Tafi and never seen again.
The Poser content/vendor market did not collapse because Pose lacked an EEVEE type viewport render.
the content creators abandoned Poser for Daz studio, because of the built in
UNIFORM STANDARD clothing rigging
tools ( transfer utility) and of course the superiority of the Genesis models over the long, sad list of sub par poser natives and failed third party saviour figures,
each with their own exotic rigging that a potential clothing vender had to sort out without documentation.
As an animator I tried to support posers Lafemme & Lahomme with animation motion presets of the same quality as my Daz G8-G9 products and was met with utter indifference.
A complete waste of my time and I am sure that other content creator had similar experiences with the Poser native figures which is why the Renderosity marketplace has effectively become a discount Daz Genesis outlet shop.
It has nothing to do with the text to 3D Model thing showcased once by Tafi and never seen again.
The Poser content/vendor market did not collapse because Pose lacked an EEVEE type viewport render.
the content creators abandoned Poser for Daz studio, because of the built in
UNIFORM STANDARD clothing rigging
tools ( transfer utility) and of course the superiority of the Genesis models over the long, sad list of sub par poser natives and failed third party saviour figures,
each with their own exotic rigging that a potential clothing vender had to sort out without documentation.
As an animator I tried to support posers Lafemme & Lahomme with animation motion presets of the same quality as my Daz G8-G9 products and was met with utter indifference.
A complete waste of my time and I am sure that other content creator had similar experiences with the Poser native figures which is why the Renderosity marketplace has effectively become a discount Daz Genesis outlet shop.
COMIXIANT
To be honest I wouldn't know. I never click on anything to do with A.I. if I can help it, and I only do so for you to be friendly and fun-like.
I think Poser ultimately failed because it failed to keep up with what is expected of a modern 3D software product.
Anyway, still no sign of a reply from Daz and if my calculations are correct they have until Monday to reply. I suspect they have no solution but I hope I'm wrong. If not then I'm gonna have to distance myself from 3D altogether. It's been a blast in some ways but unfortunately far too much a pain in others, and I'm sick and tired of wasting wads of cash on broken products.
I never used to have 'problems' with photography and cinematography as hobbies, and I really miss both so I'll be getting back to that as I always planned to anyway. There's a whole bunch of indies I have in mind just waiting to be worked on, and it's gotten to the point where I really couldn't care less what happens on the 3D scene now, so either outcome is fine with me.
I think if I do ever get back into 3D, it will be with a figure of my own creation, designed in Blender for use in Blender. Problem solved.
Karma: 1,836
Fri, Jan 24To be honest I wouldn't know. I never click on anything to do with A.I. if I can help it, and I only do so for you to be friendly and fun-like.
I think Poser ultimately failed because it failed to keep up with what is expected of a modern 3D software product.
Anyway, still no sign of a reply from Daz and if my calculations are correct they have until Monday to reply. I suspect they have no solution but I hope I'm wrong. If not then I'm gonna have to distance myself from 3D altogether. It's been a blast in some ways but unfortunately far too much a pain in others, and I'm sick and tired of wasting wads of cash on broken products.
I never used to have 'problems' with photography and cinematography as hobbies, and I really miss both so I'll be getting back to that as I always planned to anyway. There's a whole bunch of indies I have in mind just waiting to be worked on, and it's gotten to the point where I really couldn't care less what happens on the 3D scene now, so either outcome is fine with me.
I think if I do ever get back into 3D, it will be with a figure of my own creation, designed in Blender for use in Blender. Problem solved.
I have basically migrated to 2D animation and Graphic novels/comics
I just got bored and lost interest in 3D animation in recent months
I am brainstorming ideas for a 2D animated series your younger audiences
I plan to use my two toddler Grandsons as my test screeners.
I just got bored and lost interest in 3D animation in recent months
I am brainstorming ideas for a 2D animated series your younger audiences
I plan to use my two toddler Grandsons as my test screeners.
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Well I couldn't help but notice that Tech Witch was standing more provocatively in this one, probably trying to attract me after what I said about her. She's obviously turned on by my sigma male prowess and secretly admires me for it - but cannot bring herself to say so!
Anyway, good luck with the series bro, in fact I've written a script for her if she's interested:
So remember boys and girls, NEVER trust A.I.
You must avoid it and discredit it whenever and wherever possible.
COMIXIANT taught me that.
What a guy!
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Now that a few months have passed, I genuinely wish I could have just plain Daz+ back. They took my freshly-bought year's sub and cut it in half, so I'll actually get less in the long run. Sure, there's the bundles every month, but I have used exactly zero items from any of the ones I held my nose and selected, and likely never will, so that's not an incentive. Exact same freebies as Daz+. Extras that you need to log in to Connect for (something I'll never do) that are unusable once your sub runs out. And the extra discount always comes with a buy-in.
They've simply balanced it out by raising prices in general, so the cart still winds up being more on average in the end, basically extorting you into the service, and by the time you factor in the subscription price you actually wind up paying more for the things you actually want. And that's IF their never-ending broken gimmick of the day even works. Living almost on the opposite side of the globe from Utah, a lot of broken issues aren't fixed by the time I go to bed, and are no longer valid by the time I log in the following morning. Meanwhile, the Fear of Missing Out used to apply to today's deals, but now it's fear of buying today and finding out you'll have a better deal tomorrow or next week, if you really even want the sh** to begin with.
The variety is taking a dive. It's Magic Brush and Xivon's store now, everyone else just makes a cameo (I hate Xivon's stuff with a passion. If it's any good, the textures are far too intensive to be of any use. All the textures are mashed into one, emissive and all, which means you have to create goddamned geoshells and pick apart the transparency masks in order to customize it to make it tolerable or lessen the impact on your VRAM. Flip a coin as to whether or not the entire scene will look transparent in texture or filament view, so you have no idea whether or not you're clipping stuff. Not to mention doors that pivot in the middle and are instances of other doors, so you move or delete the wrong one, you delete them all. And I don't trust MB at all. But I really f***ing digress here. Special shout out to "rising star" Chrryt who seems like a [g]lich wannabe who can't sell the same textures they advertise).
Premier is made for whales, and if you don't spend like a whale, at least they take a more sizable chunk of money each month for the subscription cost. My spending over the entire four months it's existed has been in the double digits. I log in to see what's "free" (read, what I get for that tripled subscription price). Once that transferred sub is up, I'm taking a lifeboat away from that sinking ship.
They've simply balanced it out by raising prices in general, so the cart still winds up being more on average in the end, basically extorting you into the service, and by the time you factor in the subscription price you actually wind up paying more for the things you actually want. And that's IF their never-ending broken gimmick of the day even works. Living almost on the opposite side of the globe from Utah, a lot of broken issues aren't fixed by the time I go to bed, and are no longer valid by the time I log in the following morning. Meanwhile, the Fear of Missing Out used to apply to today's deals, but now it's fear of buying today and finding out you'll have a better deal tomorrow or next week, if you really even want the sh** to begin with.
The variety is taking a dive. It's Magic Brush and Xivon's store now, everyone else just makes a cameo (I hate Xivon's stuff with a passion. If it's any good, the textures are far too intensive to be of any use. All the textures are mashed into one, emissive and all, which means you have to create goddamned geoshells and pick apart the transparency masks in order to customize it to make it tolerable or lessen the impact on your VRAM. Flip a coin as to whether or not the entire scene will look transparent in texture or filament view, so you have no idea whether or not you're clipping stuff. Not to mention doors that pivot in the middle and are instances of other doors, so you move or delete the wrong one, you delete them all. And I don't trust MB at all. But I really f***ing digress here. Special shout out to "rising star" Chrryt who seems like a [g]lich wannabe who can't sell the same textures they advertise).
Premier is made for whales, and if you don't spend like a whale, at least they take a more sizable chunk of money each month for the subscription cost. My spending over the entire four months it's existed has been in the double digits. I log in to see what's "free" (read, what I get for that tripled subscription price). Once that transferred sub is up, I'm taking a lifeboat away from that sinking ship.
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COMIXIANT
I definitely understand the hate people have for Premiers, and I join them in that. I'm puzzled though as to why Daz+ is getting hit too. I recently subscribed to Daz+ and it was around $10 for one month. The last time I had Daz+ before the changes I was charged around $30 for three months which is exactly the same.
I joined Daz+ after finding that Genesis 9 could handle dForce without air bubbles, so the first thing I intended to buy was the default resources bundle for Genesis 9.. To my surprise I wasn't even able to buy it, because when I tried to add it to my cart, it wouldn't let me because "ADD TO CART" was replaced with "PURCHASED", so I didn't even need to buy it!
In other words I was able to get DAZ+ for a month for the same rate as I used to have to pay for three months to get before, and into the bargain they even added the default resources bundle to my account, and that bundle retails for seven times the price that I paid for one month of Daz+.
There must be something else that's pissing people off, but to be honest I don't know what it is. For me, the new Daz+ has so far turned out better than the previous one. It's just unfortunate that I'm dealing with some bizarre bug and cannot make use the content I purchased.
Karma: 1,836
Sat, Jan 25I definitely understand the hate people have for Premiers, and I join them in that. I'm puzzled though as to why Daz+ is getting hit too. I recently subscribed to Daz+ and it was around $10 for one month. The last time I had Daz+ before the changes I was charged around $30 for three months which is exactly the same.
I joined Daz+ after finding that Genesis 9 could handle dForce without air bubbles, so the first thing I intended to buy was the default resources bundle for Genesis 9.. To my surprise I wasn't even able to buy it, because when I tried to add it to my cart, it wouldn't let me because "ADD TO CART" was replaced with "PURCHASED", so I didn't even need to buy it!
In other words I was able to get DAZ+ for a month for the same rate as I used to have to pay for three months to get before, and into the bargain they even added the default resources bundle to my account, and that bundle retails for seven times the price that I paid for one month of Daz+.
There must be something else that's pissing people off, but to be honest I don't know what it is. For me, the new Daz+ has so far turned out better than the previous one. It's just unfortunate that I'm dealing with some bizarre bug and cannot make use the content I purchased.
