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GLBWHAT IF questions on AI
307Thread Activity
bonjTue, Feb 11
kwerkxTue, Feb 11
bonjMon, Feb 10
COMIXIANTThu, Jan 16
AnabranThu, Jan 16
COMIXIANTThu, Jan 16
This is a what if question based on an idea that is stuck in my head.
What if Daz Studio (or another product) used AI to generate a scene instead of a render? Staying details lite, the most general idea is given a prompt, the tool generates a scene using models from their catalog. So, using Daz as an example, the prompt "Josie comes home from shopping" generates an indoor scene with Josie 9, clothes, a pose, and props all from the Daz catalog. The artist then has the option of manipulating or changing details before hitting render. It sounds good in my head; but here is what I would ask the Artists gathered here:
Would that intermediate stage, being able to manipulate the scene before rendering, have any practical, artistic value?
Would AI generation of the scene that is ultimately rendered be an acceptable use of AI?
Thank you for humoring me.
What if Daz Studio (or another product) used AI to generate a scene instead of a render? Staying details lite, the most general idea is given a prompt, the tool generates a scene using models from their catalog. So, using Daz as an example, the prompt "Josie comes home from shopping" generates an indoor scene with Josie 9, clothes, a pose, and props all from the Daz catalog. The artist then has the option of manipulating or changing details before hitting render. It sounds good in my head; but here is what I would ask the Artists gathered here:
Would that intermediate stage, being able to manipulate the scene before rendering, have any practical, artistic value?
Would AI generation of the scene that is ultimately rendered be an acceptable use of AI?
Thank you for humoring me.
! REPORT
In this case the AI is now performing that one task that Daz studio users cling to so they can claim they are creating their art
your Daz catalogue is fill with prefabbed models you did not create, texture or rig.
even poses(body & face ) or animations you did not keyframe.
sometimes not even Light parameters you did not dial in.
The typical Daz studio user is effectively a glorified 3D scene assembly technician as it is.
If that task is handed over to AI as well, then what is the point of even hoarding a Daz content catalogue.
and the associated costs
of owning a PC and GPU to run Iray.
The Daz figures look plastic and lifeless compared to most of the photorealistic AI images
you see coming out of midjourney AI these days.
Daz had teased an AI system that would create a scene by pulling actual 3D assets from your catalogue,
nearly two years ago.
but they seem to have shelved the idea entirely.
your Daz catalogue is fill with prefabbed models you did not create, texture or rig.
even poses(body & face ) or animations you did not keyframe.
sometimes not even Light parameters you did not dial in.
The typical Daz studio user is effectively a glorified 3D scene assembly technician as it is.
If that task is handed over to AI as well, then what is the point of even hoarding a Daz content catalogue.
and the associated costs
of owning a PC and GPU to run Iray.
The Daz figures look plastic and lifeless compared to most of the photorealistic AI images
you see coming out of midjourney AI these days.
Daz had teased an AI system that would create a scene by pulling actual 3D assets from your catalogue,
nearly two years ago.
but they seem to have shelved the idea entirely.
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kwerkx
Karma: 6,242
Thu, Jan 09Good points and they touch on my worries. I know that I am modifying (kit bash) and posing other peoples work; at best I bring an idea (likely cliche) and an eye for framing. If "assembly" is automated and the idea interpreted by a machine.. then there isn't much left to do and I wonder if scene assembly is even worth it compared to a direct AI render. On "hoarding Daz catalog contents", I kind of assume (at least Daz) would align a tool like this with a subscription service for their whole catalog. Also, I did not know of the Daz teaser.. that might be how this thread got stuck in my head. Thank you for your comment!
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 38,712
Thu, Jan 09The kit bash argument is often put forward by AI acolytes ... but that doesn't necessarily make it true 
Take a look at the gallery - so: I don't see anything of dumb Kit Bash ... but many, sometimes highly interesting approaches to creating something new from within with given material. Would you accuse a 2D artist of kit bashing just because he didn't make his brush himself but used something that others made for him?
Take a look at the gallery - so: I don't see anything of dumb Kit Bash ... but many, sometimes highly interesting approaches to creating something new from within with given material. Would you accuse a 2D artist of kit bashing just because he didn't make his brush himself but used something that others made for him?
Anabran
Karma: 2,724
Thu, Jan 09Kit bashing with canned assets that anyone else can buy or rent from Daz, is not the SAME as painter buying prefabricated brush an creating an original hand painted work.
Nothing morally wrong with that FACT that DAZ users simply arrange prefabricated easily recognizable assets.
No surprise that the next logical step ,for a growing number of them , is generative AI that produces far superior result than Iray.
Just as it is no surprise that DAZ has now resorted to a cynical pay to play rentware, money grab to make up for the loss of revenue from people who are migrating to generative AI.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/650861/is-ai-killing-the-3d-star/p12
Nothing morally wrong with that FACT that DAZ users simply arrange prefabricated easily recognizable assets.
No surprise that the next logical step ,for a growing number of them , is generative AI that produces far superior result than Iray.
Just as it is no surprise that DAZ has now resorted to a cynical pay to play rentware, money grab to make up for the loss of revenue from people who are migrating to generative AI.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/650861/is-ai-killing-the-3d-star/p12
kwerkx
Karma: 6,242
Thu, Jan 09Ha ha! I commented on that thread too. Thank you both for your comments. And for the record, I am part of the arrange prefabricated assets crowd and I am not moving towards generative AI. Not because of some moral stance; but because generative AI feels more like consumption rather than production. Thank you again for your comments.
So - the hypothetical machine would only use DAZ content, but not generate any? The content used would be exclusively on the user's PC ... or would it be bought by the hypothetical machine (have fun with your wallet
Artistic value?
Well ... maybe as a source of ideas or inspiration (but nothing more) when you can't think of anything.
Acceptable use of AI?
Not for me - but in this hypothetical case everyone would have to decide for themselves.
Well ... after all, your hypothetical machine would generate amazing things for newbies (if nothing is available for use yet and the machine only uses what is available on the user's hard disk):
Josie comes home from shopping: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
Josie watches TV: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
Josie fights an Alien: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
Josie has fun with her boyfriend: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
...
Sounds interesting
Artistic value?
Well ... maybe as a source of ideas or inspiration (but nothing more) when you can't think of anything.
Acceptable use of AI?
Not for me - but in this hypothetical case everyone would have to decide for themselves.
Well ... after all, your hypothetical machine would generate amazing things for newbies (if nothing is available for use yet and the machine only uses what is available on the user's hard disk):
Josie comes home from shopping: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
Josie watches TV: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
Josie fights an Alien: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
Josie has fun with her boyfriend: GF8, naked and without hair in A-pose
...
Sounds interesting
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kwerkx
Karma: 6,242
Thu, Jan 09Yep, I kind of assume a subscription to a catalog (the whole Daz catalog for example) would be offered. And yes, it would be insane for newbies to jump right in (again assuming a catalog is included). As a tinkering technician myself, I am inclined to agree that there is limited (if any) artistic value and not likely an acceptable use of AI (perhaps a technical use exists though.. I don't know). Thank you for your comments!
Basically You become a photographer. You Rent Stuff for a rented studio with a rented camera Rent People to pose etc.. What You own is the Finished product from a polaroid camera.
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kwerkx
Karma: 6,242
Thu, Jan 09Interesting analogy for 3D studios. But if AI set the initial scene, then using this analogy, the photographer might tweak a hand or camera angle or simply accept it as is and click render. It is a very interesting analogy though, thank you.
Isn't that basically DAZ's AI program? You load up all your DAZ assets and type out some directional prompt and boom there it is, with a few AI doing AI things included?
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kwerkx
Karma: 6,242
Thu, Jan 09Close. My thought was what if the AI just set your scene and let you tinker before clicking render. A user might just click render and it would just generate a typical AI image only with a pause between prompt and render. Thank you for the comment.
I'm just along time hobbiest and I enjoy setting up my own scenes. I would like possibly an AI enhancement feature that could be adjusted while using the Iray preview. Something that could help enhance textures, especially environment features like dirt, sand, and water.
To be honest, I haven't even played around with any of the AI software so I'm not even sure if its something that could be incorporated into Daz studio.
To be honest, I haven't even played around with any of the AI software so I'm not even sure if its something that could be incorporated into Daz studio.
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COMIXIANTSun, Jan 12
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If I recall, Ton Roosendaal once talked about a way to have blender use its modelling tools in order to model objects based on user prompts. I suppose (depending on the command being issued), it could be seen as a legitimate use of A.I. in some scenarios. But even if it were, I cannot imagine it being any quicker having to constantly prompt an A.I. system than it would be to just do it yourself with a mouse!
On the one hand, if you were to prompt it to create a human head for example, then sure that would be quick but it would not be your own work. On the other hand, if you were to prompt it to do vertice-level model operations then it would surely be qicker to do it directly by mouse.
As Anabran rightly suggests in his point about pre-fabrication, hardly any of us fully create our own content. I mean, using a DAZ figure for example, that right there means you never modeled the figure for starters!
However, at the same time we have to be realistic of what can and cannot be considered our own work. Take a DAZ figure for example, it can be loaded into the viewport in an A-Pose wihtout textures or anything other than its default shape. But it's the user's own decision making that turns it into something of their own., whether it be pose, textures, shaping, environment, theming, artistic style etc. So a finished render is indeed our own work as long as it was arrived at by our own decision making. As long as we don't involve A.I. then we can be confident that the resulting render is our own work.
But here's the thing (and it's quite a biggie). The difference between using a DAZ figure to create your render and using A.I. to create one is that when you use a DAZ figure, you're creating a finished work that was produced using content that you paid for or were given as a freebie by the artist who actually created it. It results in a render that is completely your own, produced using content that is legitimate. So to me, it is every bit as legitimate to use a DAZ figure, texture, morph etc as it is for a traditional artist to use different types of brush.
In other words our content is our brush, out DAZ characters are various types of brush and setting the morphs within them are technique.
Not so with A.I. because the difference is that people are generating A.I. images based upon content and artistic style that was stolen and fed into an algorithm in order to generate its output, so in my opinion they're literally stealing from the public and reselling to the public a service that is based upon theft. So using pre-fabricated content is a legitimate art form, because if it were not, then any photograph containing objects that a photographer did not make would not be a legitimate form of art. So we need to be aware of what, in context, the role of pre-fabrication actually forms, which in our case is merely a brush that is under our control just as a traditional brush is under the control of a traditional artist.
There's a difference between that and what A.I. does, it's why A.I. is a lawsuit in the making, and it's just one of many reasons why I won't touch it.
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kwerkx
Karma: 6,242
Sun, Jan 12Thank you for your comments!
Towards the end, you touched on one of my favorite talking points. Yep, AI is a lawsuit in the making and after the lawsuit there will likely be an audit wave that sweeps through training sets. That will be an interesting time. I suspect a similar event will happen in 3d marketplaces in terms of NIL and realistic character models, hopefully caricatures loopholes will survive.
The alternate discussion in this thread has been about "pre-fabrication" and Daz "art". The photographer analogy @Radkres used aligns pretty well with your comment and in both cases I agree that the image (or polaroid in the photographer analogy) in a property sense is yours. It is also your own work, you clicked the buttons and put in the effort. But is it art? In my personal headspace, I do not make art, I make pictures, and if we circle that back to that earlier paragraph.. that might be it's own wrench thrown into the works.
Towards the end, you touched on one of my favorite talking points. Yep, AI is a lawsuit in the making and after the lawsuit there will likely be an audit wave that sweeps through training sets. That will be an interesting time. I suspect a similar event will happen in 3d marketplaces in terms of NIL and realistic character models, hopefully caricatures loopholes will survive.
The alternate discussion in this thread has been about "pre-fabrication" and Daz "art". The photographer analogy @Radkres used aligns pretty well with your comment and in both cases I agree that the image (or polaroid in the photographer analogy) in a property sense is yours. It is also your own work, you clicked the buttons and put in the effort. But is it art? In my personal headspace, I do not make art, I make pictures, and if we circle that back to that earlier paragraph.. that might be it's own wrench thrown into the works.
COMIXIANT
Photography is definitely an art form and in more ways than one. It's not just about composition and lighting, it's about knowing how to use a fully manual camera properly in order to get the result you want. With photography, your camera is your brush, and in traditional darkroom photography there's further artistry and skill involved in order to pull-off certain effects during the various processing stages. In fact the process we call 'postwork' today is basically the digital version of what happened in a traditional analogue darkroom.
Dance, Ballet and even Acting are all artforms, as are the various aspects of producing music, known collectively as 'Performing Arts'.
Account Closed
Sun, Jan 12Photography is definitely an art form and in more ways than one. It's not just about composition and lighting, it's about knowing how to use a fully manual camera properly in order to get the result you want. With photography, your camera is your brush, and in traditional darkroom photography there's further artistry and skill involved in order to pull-off certain effects during the various processing stages. In fact the process we call 'postwork' today is basically the digital version of what happened in a traditional analogue darkroom.
Dance, Ballet and even Acting are all artforms, as are the various aspects of producing music, known collectively as 'Performing Arts'.
guy91600
Karma: 14,041
Sun, Jan 12Post-work can be done on silver halide photos, either in the lab or by using a mask during exposure to mask overexposed areas. Some photographers also retouch with paint or ink.
COMIXIANT
I sometimes wonder if modern youngsters are taught where the photographic terms "Dodge", "Burn" and "Exposure" came from!
Account Closed
Thu, Jan 16I sometimes wonder if modern youngsters are taught where the photographic terms "Dodge", "Burn" and "Exposure" came from!
Anabran
Karma: 2,724
Thu, Jan 16Young people today have no need to know the origin of those terms accept as an academic exercise in the history of photography.
Most young people today use the term “bootlegto refer to an illegal copy of some entertainment media with Zero knowledge of its origin in the alcohol prohibition era where thin, flat flasks of liquor were hidden in the legs of men’s boots.
Kodak actually invented digital photography but tried to bury the tech to protect their paper & chemical markets.
We all know how that well worked out for them.
Most young people today use the term “bootlegto refer to an illegal copy of some entertainment media with Zero knowledge of its origin in the alcohol prohibition era where thin, flat flasks of liquor were hidden in the legs of men’s boots.
Kodak actually invented digital photography but tried to bury the tech to protect their paper & chemical markets.
We all know how that well worked out for them.
COMIXIANT
I didn't mean on a need to know basis though, I just meant out of curiosity really, just thinking out loud.
There's a revival of analogue photography at the moment. Even Pentax are releasing brand new film cameras and there's multiple film manufacturing brands currenly having to up their production to keep up with demand. There's new film formulations being developed as I write this, and believe it or not, there's even brand new film manufacturers hitting the market these days, all of which is fantastic news to hear!
Not sure I'd ever get back into analogue photography personally (not in my current living accomodation anyway), but I sure do miss it and have far more respect for the analogue photographic masters than I will ever have for the modern equivalent. You really need to know what you're doing when working with the analogue process, and the results when done at the hands of a skilled analogue photographer are something I've always envied and have the deepest respect for.
Account Closed
Thu, Jan 16I didn't mean on a need to know basis though, I just meant out of curiosity really, just thinking out loud.
There's a revival of analogue photography at the moment. Even Pentax are releasing brand new film cameras and there's multiple film manufacturing brands currenly having to up their production to keep up with demand. There's new film formulations being developed as I write this, and believe it or not, there's even brand new film manufacturers hitting the market these days, all of which is fantastic news to hear!
Not sure I'd ever get back into analogue photography personally (not in my current living accomodation anyway), but I sure do miss it and have far more respect for the analogue photographic masters than I will ever have for the modern equivalent. You really need to know what you're doing when working with the analogue process, and the results when done at the hands of a skilled analogue photographer are something I've always envied and have the deepest respect for.
Hi kwerkx
To answer your original question
"What if Daz Studio (or another product) used AI to generate a scene instead of a render? "
Other products are already doing exactly this with procedural generation. No Ai needed as in fact Ai i nothing more than algorithms and is only a gimmick to make money and destroy a variety of industries or weaken them enough for new brands to move into.
Ai 3d model generators are becoming more powerful and eventually will take a large part of the market away from artist. Fortunately originality is something AI and even most humans lack so there will still be a place for real artist especially if they are multi skilled.
As of today procedural generation in game engines needs your assets to use to generate the environment but many projects exist that will soon generate a template model. The template has variations and can be adjusted by the developer accordingly.
"The technique utilizes randomized mathematical algorithms to automatically generate data. This method ensures each creation is unique and unpredictable, a factor that can greatly enhance the gameplay experience. Not only does it allow for greater content variability, but it also significantly reduces the size of game files, as procedurally generated data only needs to store the algorithms instead of individual data points." Daz does exactly this with instancing scripts.
Additionally our landscape as an artist is continually moving. I started in the 90's making real world models for film and tv. Props for special effects.
A few years ago I was taking commissions for sculpted portraits of people. mostly peoples kids 3d printed and hand painted as unique gifts.
Then 3d scan booths appeared in shopping centers and I could not compete with the cheap and inferior products. Who would pay me 300 quid to sculpt a figure from 3 photographs when they can stand in a scanner for 5 mins and 3 days later get the 3d product all for 85 quid.
If I calculated the time involved just sculpting the person before even considering a 3d print then my hourly rate would be less than I made doing a paper round as a kid 40 years ago.
It's a tough business in a moving landscape today. Not only AI but a growing market means more competitors (talking game dev here). Then there's pirate's not just taking your product but also re distributing it. I can say this much. I have made nothing from my 3d work in years. Sales are down in every sector including game dev. That said I don't put the hours in and have other comitments.
I may actually give up and go back to freelance tech as it pays 400 a day.
To answer your original question
"What if Daz Studio (or another product) used AI to generate a scene instead of a render? "
Other products are already doing exactly this with procedural generation. No Ai needed as in fact Ai i nothing more than algorithms and is only a gimmick to make money and destroy a variety of industries or weaken them enough for new brands to move into.
Ai 3d model generators are becoming more powerful and eventually will take a large part of the market away from artist. Fortunately originality is something AI and even most humans lack so there will still be a place for real artist especially if they are multi skilled.
As of today procedural generation in game engines needs your assets to use to generate the environment but many projects exist that will soon generate a template model. The template has variations and can be adjusted by the developer accordingly.
"The technique utilizes randomized mathematical algorithms to automatically generate data. This method ensures each creation is unique and unpredictable, a factor that can greatly enhance the gameplay experience. Not only does it allow for greater content variability, but it also significantly reduces the size of game files, as procedurally generated data only needs to store the algorithms instead of individual data points." Daz does exactly this with instancing scripts.
Additionally our landscape as an artist is continually moving. I started in the 90's making real world models for film and tv. Props for special effects.
A few years ago I was taking commissions for sculpted portraits of people. mostly peoples kids 3d printed and hand painted as unique gifts.
Then 3d scan booths appeared in shopping centers and I could not compete with the cheap and inferior products. Who would pay me 300 quid to sculpt a figure from 3 photographs when they can stand in a scanner for 5 mins and 3 days later get the 3d product all for 85 quid.
If I calculated the time involved just sculpting the person before even considering a 3d print then my hourly rate would be less than I made doing a paper round as a kid 40 years ago.
It's a tough business in a moving landscape today. Not only AI but a growing market means more competitors (talking game dev here). Then there's pirate's not just taking your product but also re distributing it. I can say this much. I have made nothing from my 3d work in years. Sales are down in every sector including game dev. That said I don't put the hours in and have other comitments.
I may actually give up and go back to freelance tech as it pays 400 a day.
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kwerkx
Karma: 6,242
Tue, Feb 11Hi Bonj,
Thanks for your comments and I took a look at the wiki page for procedural generation. Add chatGPT or similar with a map to your personal library and it would indeed do the trick. On a tangent, I watched a video where 3d assets were extracted from a photo.. that would be an interesting use for "AI". Also, extracting poses or keyframes from videos would be neat.
And, you are absolutely right about a continuously moving landscape, in both art and tech. I wouldn't give up on those miniatures though.. the down time on those 3d scanner booths costs money too. Better tools and a unique artistic interpretation may yet net you the win. Good Luck!
Thanks for your comments and I took a look at the wiki page for procedural generation. Add chatGPT or similar with a map to your personal library and it would indeed do the trick. On a tangent, I watched a video where 3d assets were extracted from a photo.. that would be an interesting use for "AI". Also, extracting poses or keyframes from videos would be neat.
And, you are absolutely right about a continuously moving landscape, in both art and tech. I wouldn't give up on those miniatures though.. the down time on those 3d scanner booths costs money too. Better tools and a unique artistic interpretation may yet net you the win. Good Luck!
bonj
Karma: 13,271
Tue, Feb 11Hi kwerkx
Thanks for your response. Procedural generation is essential for most indy or low budget devs. I Plan to use it a lot when I get that far with unreal.
RE: generating a mesh from photo is getting better , still lots of clean up to do. I think this technique is ideal for something like historical objects or even forensics science. I've seen some great results.
Depends what the final model is for but the more images you have to build the mesh the better the result. 3d scans look awesome in unreal as well as iray providing all the normal/ bumps are applied.
Using a drone to 3d scan caves is also an interesting tangent. to look up. Petra scans are pretty cool.
Thanks for your response. Procedural generation is essential for most indy or low budget devs. I Plan to use it a lot when I get that far with unreal.
RE: generating a mesh from photo is getting better , still lots of clean up to do. I think this technique is ideal for something like historical objects or even forensics science. I've seen some great results.
Depends what the final model is for but the more images you have to build the mesh the better the result. 3d scans look awesome in unreal as well as iray providing all the normal/ bumps are applied.
Using a drone to 3d scan caves is also an interesting tangent. to look up. Petra scans are pretty cool.
