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GLBQuestion to our 3D artists about AI and 3D Artwork
318Thread Activity
Beautiful MisfitsSat, Jun 07
TZO3k1Sat, Jun 07
TZO3k1Sat, Jun 07
xyer0Sat, Jun 07
guy91600Sat, Jun 07
bonjSat, Jun 07
In light of the lively discussion around the AI gallery...
If a 3D artist uses any AI in a project, would we still consider the final render/video to be art?
Or do we automatically disqualify it as art the moment AI is introduced?
Would love to hear opinions on this.
If a 3D artist uses any AI in a project, would we still consider the final render/video to be art?
Or do we automatically disqualify it as art the moment AI is introduced?
Would love to hear opinions on this.
! REPORT
Although I'm not a 3D artist, just a CC who tries to create halfway decent promo images, here's my very own opinion:
I know exactly 2 people whose AI work I would perhaps, under certain circumstances, maybe ... award the title of artist.
One of them published his work under the user name Topspin for a short time on 'rotica. He used what the machine spit out as a basis for further alienation (compared to normal AI users, where what is spit out is supposed to be the " art "). He also maintained / " feeded " his AI locally and was able to create a kind of steam-punk machine look. This was sometimes very impressive.
The other is Roope Rainisto. He deliberately uses the errors that occur with AI to create strangely realistic-unrealistic images.
https://ucrarts.ucr.edu/ai-post-photography/roope-rainisto/
I wouldn't call anything else 3D art ... but that also applies (as written) to my manual created pictures.
I know exactly 2 people whose AI work I would perhaps, under certain circumstances, maybe ... award the title of artist.
One of them published his work under the user name Topspin for a short time on 'rotica. He used what the machine spit out as a basis for further alienation (compared to normal AI users, where what is spit out is supposed to be the " art "). He also maintained / " feeded " his AI locally and was able to create a kind of steam-punk machine look. This was sometimes very impressive.
The other is Roope Rainisto. He deliberately uses the errors that occur with AI to create strangely realistic-unrealistic images.
https://ucrarts.ucr.edu/ai-post-photography/roope-rainisto/
I wouldn't call anything else 3D art ... but that also applies (as written) to my manual created pictures.
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! REPORT
You are opening a can of worms with this question, particularly in the setting of the internet where everyone has an opinion few if any bother to define what they are talking (writing) about and everyone throws logic to the wind while running on emotion.
But since you asked I'll proffer my opinion on the matter
I view AI as a medium in which art can be made
It's like using a rendering engine
Or brushes and oil paints
Or crayons
It has strengths and limitations like all mediums
And the human behind the medium needs an understanding (trained or intuitive) of composition and presentation in addition to mastering the medium itself if they want to make something that others think is "good"
I choose not to use AI because I am lazy
I can get what I want for me out of Daz Studio
Learning how to make AI get me exactly what I want seems like it would take up a lot of my (valuable and scarce) spare time I could be using to exercising my imagination and creating something that make me happy
I also feel I have not exhausted the potential or learned all there is to the medium of 3D rendering
And just to be clear I personally define art as any representation intended to create an emotional or reasoned response in the viewer.
That is my understanding of what Art is
But since you asked I'll proffer my opinion on the matter
I view AI as a medium in which art can be made
It's like using a rendering engine
Or brushes and oil paints
Or crayons
It has strengths and limitations like all mediums
And the human behind the medium needs an understanding (trained or intuitive) of composition and presentation in addition to mastering the medium itself if they want to make something that others think is "good"
I choose not to use AI because I am lazy
I can get what I want for me out of Daz Studio
Learning how to make AI get me exactly what I want seems like it would take up a lot of my (valuable and scarce) spare time I could be using to exercising my imagination and creating something that make me happy
I also feel I have not exhausted the potential or learned all there is to the medium of 3D rendering
And just to be clear I personally define art as any representation intended to create an emotional or reasoned response in the viewer.
That is my understanding of what Art is
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! REPORT
Quote:If a 3D artist uses any AI in a project, would we still consider the final render/video to be art?Or do we automatically disqualify it as art the moment AI is introduced?
AI is actually broad term so you need to define what you mean by "used AI in the 3D project"
because every extremist faction of the anti AI movement
considers the specific use of AI the replaces them to be the thing that totally disqualifies the entire project
I hand keyed this animation in Blender
but where is the AI in this video?
AI is actually broad term so you need to define what you mean by "used AI in the 3D project"
because every extremist faction of the anti AI movement
considers the specific use of AI the replaces them to be the thing that totally disqualifies the entire project
I hand keyed this animation in Blender
but where is the AI in this video?
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! REPORT
It would depend on how it's used. Just the standard, "AI give me a picture of a hot girl" that's seemingly everywhere wouldn't qualify.
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Look "AI" is a generic boogie-man term that (mostly but not completely) wraps "machine learning tool that generates human like results".. so, I figure a generic "Maybe" is appropriate.
Caveat: For the fully generative "AI" stuff, you know convert phrase to image. Nope, the machine made all the choice..
The nuance I would focus on is (the best anti-AI argument I have heard) that it takes without license or permission material created by another to train it's models... taking things without permission isn't very ethical.. thus "AI" (generative or enhanced) that uses "borrowed" material for it's models is not ethical.. i.e. "bad". That's the emotional firebrand I see.. well that and the BS marketing crap where some jerk conflated "AI" with "Terminator 2000 / Skynet" to scare the shit out of people.
Caveat: For the fully generative "AI" stuff, you know convert phrase to image. Nope, the machine made all the choice..
The nuance I would focus on is (the best anti-AI argument I have heard) that it takes without license or permission material created by another to train it's models... taking things without permission isn't very ethical.. thus "AI" (generative or enhanced) that uses "borrowed" material for it's models is not ethical.. i.e. "bad". That's the emotional firebrand I see.. well that and the BS marketing crap where some jerk conflated "AI" with "Terminator 2000 / Skynet" to scare the shit out of people.
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! REPORT
For me, my solitary reason for rejecting AI art is when the models were trained with both stolen, and blackmailed participants of AI generation progs/sites, as these bastards mandate that to use their services that your artwork will be used to train their models…
I have several AI artists that I admire that use their own photography to train their models…
I have several AI artists that I admire that use their own photography to train their models…
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! REPORT
This is a 3d model site primarily. we sell models. Should we be enhancing our renders of the models? No that would be misguiding our customers.
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! REPORT
guy91600
Karma: 14,097
Sat, Jun 07I completely agree, this is also why for some time now I have avoided using a background to keep a raw rendering of the product that I offer.
What is the sites primary business? 3d model sales. should we enhance our renders of the models or would that be misleading and not an accurate representation of the product?
If your are genuinely interested in understanding why many of us are not happy to use any form of ai then I ask you to take up this challenge. Make a scene similar to this one.
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/48394/tears-in-the-rain
I use no post production at all. everything you see is rendered including all reflections and condensation. This scene took a huge amount of time to get right. I entered it into the reflections event but did't get even a mention.
several of the winners use two renders and Photoshop to give the impression of real reflections. Why were real in engine reflections ignored over an image that was 50 percent Photoshop? Was it a render competition or an art competition?
I was even beaten by "my bold pussy" a joke entry.
I hope you can understand my frustration. It's not just ai but post production raises some concerns because it's not a real representation of the assets used. Why is this important, because the site primary business is to sell 3d models.
I am a producer so if I make a game and then use ai or even do any post production on the marketing images do those images give an accurate representation of my game? no .
Please Ion take the time to build a complex scene and light it correctly. It should be complex enough to need at least a 5 hour render. without any ai or post production. and share the result with us.
If you honestly care about how the artist / producer feels try this experiment.
This render took almost 2 days
If your are genuinely interested in understanding why many of us are not happy to use any form of ai then I ask you to take up this challenge. Make a scene similar to this one.
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/48394/tears-in-the-rain
I use no post production at all. everything you see is rendered including all reflections and condensation. This scene took a huge amount of time to get right. I entered it into the reflections event but did't get even a mention.
several of the winners use two renders and Photoshop to give the impression of real reflections. Why were real in engine reflections ignored over an image that was 50 percent Photoshop? Was it a render competition or an art competition?
I was even beaten by "my bold pussy" a joke entry.
I hope you can understand my frustration. It's not just ai but post production raises some concerns because it's not a real representation of the assets used. Why is this important, because the site primary business is to sell 3d models.
I am a producer so if I make a game and then use ai or even do any post production on the marketing images do those images give an accurate representation of my game? no .
Please Ion take the time to build a complex scene and light it correctly. It should be complex enough to need at least a 5 hour render. without any ai or post production. and share the result with us.
If you honestly care about how the artist / producer feels try this experiment.
This render took almost 2 days
REPLY
! REPORT
bonj
Karma: 13,266
Sat, Jun 07Additionally There are several more issues I would like to discuss with you but feel that should be done privately. If your open to discussion please drop me a pm and I will happily give you more feedback regarding my experience here.
Best regards
bonj
Best regards
bonj
TZO3k1
Karma: 892
Sat, Jun 07Here's my complex 3D render, no postwork in the first draft, for the main image I only added chromatic aberration by using an image viewer/editor in order to match the original HDRI image… ⇒ https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/47206/gains-checking-progress
I had to manually create primitives to match the weight benches and other components in the scene in order to mask out the reflected image so it matches the HDRI image, and even rendered the scene for use as an image for the phone that the second (Or first?) character uses…
I still like the idea of AI, but only when true effort goes into the generation of that art, and a simple prompt is not going to cut it, you need to use tools to augment the direction of what is going to be rendered, and that goes beyond simple prompts and more into advanced model training and scene-tools such as with animation and the like.
But to hide behind AI in order to boost one's popularity while claiming it was done in 3D is disingenuous for both the viewer and the artist, and should be called out at every turn!
I had to manually create primitives to match the weight benches and other components in the scene in order to mask out the reflected image so it matches the HDRI image, and even rendered the scene for use as an image for the phone that the second (Or first?) character uses…
I still like the idea of AI, but only when true effort goes into the generation of that art, and a simple prompt is not going to cut it, you need to use tools to augment the direction of what is going to be rendered, and that goes beyond simple prompts and more into advanced model training and scene-tools such as with animation and the like.
But to hide behind AI in order to boost one's popularity while claiming it was done in 3D is disingenuous for both the viewer and the artist, and should be called out at every turn!
TZO3k1
Karma: 892
Sat, Jun 07“But to hide behind AI in order to boost one's popularity while claiming it was done in 3D is disingenuous for both the viewer and the artist, and should be called out at every turn!Not describing you in the least, but I am speaking in general, as it's really infuriating when 3D poseurs hide behind AI in order to enter contests!
That's an impressive render, bonj!
Whether or not something is considered "art" is irrelevant to me. It is also irrelevant that prompt-writing is a skill. Contrary to the incongruous analogies of generative ai to photography, digital sampling, or music synthesizers or even comparisons of generative ai to image post-production, ai is categorically in another realm from any of those tools.
We have now entered the stage of history in which the only non-suicidal option for living is to become a Luddite concerning ai. This will become increasingly untenable as ai achieves ubiquity in electronics and software. However, the alternative is willful cooperation with our own genocide. Kaczynski was prophetic.
People send their DNA to strangers in order to receive a partially fictional genealogical result, while also granting said strangers unlimited usage and ownership of their code. Modern people consider it normal to surrender all of their privacy and civil rights in order to amuse and entertain themselves; thus, we call them "normies." But very soon, ai shall make the current technotyranny seem like freedom in comparison. Each time we use ai---ai uses us to tighten the nooses around our own necks. This is the principle that makes collaborating with ai a hard 'no' for me. I understand that most people do not share my convictions and also are unwilling to surrender any conveniences, but strait and narrow is the way, and few find it.
Whether or not something is considered "art" is irrelevant to me. It is also irrelevant that prompt-writing is a skill. Contrary to the incongruous analogies of generative ai to photography, digital sampling, or music synthesizers or even comparisons of generative ai to image post-production, ai is categorically in another realm from any of those tools.
We have now entered the stage of history in which the only non-suicidal option for living is to become a Luddite concerning ai. This will become increasingly untenable as ai achieves ubiquity in electronics and software. However, the alternative is willful cooperation with our own genocide. Kaczynski was prophetic.
People send their DNA to strangers in order to receive a partially fictional genealogical result, while also granting said strangers unlimited usage and ownership of their code. Modern people consider it normal to surrender all of their privacy and civil rights in order to amuse and entertain themselves; thus, we call them "normies." But very soon, ai shall make the current technotyranny seem like freedom in comparison. Each time we use ai---ai uses us to tighten the nooses around our own necks. This is the principle that makes collaborating with ai a hard 'no' for me. I understand that most people do not share my convictions and also are unwilling to surrender any conveniences, but strait and narrow is the way, and few find it.
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! REPORT
Beautiful Misfits
Account Closed
Sat, Jun 07I really like your way, to write down the essence of what we're facing right now. And you're right, only a few will find the way out if this and will survive.
Under what circumstances is another story, but hopefully it will be our story and not his-story.
Under what circumstances is another story, but hopefully it will be our story and not his-story.
