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GLBThe dForce Madness (creepy laughter from offstage)
309Thread Activity
Pushee-RiWed, Jan 21
Luxe MuseWed, Jan 21
TZO3k1Wed, Jan 21
guy91600Mon, Jan 19
guy91600Mon, Jan 19
Pushee-RiMon, Jan 19
" I only buy DAZ products with dForce now! "
Someone said something like this in a forum once - maybe even here on Renderhub?!
Basically, something like this is, of course, everyone's own business/belief/attitude/whatever ... if there weren't producers who take money out of the pockets of these dForce-crazy fools with obscure objects... or rip them off from the start.
Masterstroke gave a great example of this kind of dForce madness in another thread. Take a close look at this dForce product (including the promo images):
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-ultimate-buzzcut-hair-for-genesis-9
Honestly, folks my hair is maybe 2 millimeters longer than what's shown... but I can stand on my head for as long as I want: it doesn't move or follow gravity - nope, nada, niente.
But the dForce madness doesn't end there. And even if you can't create 3D clothing with dForce, you can at least call it " dForce enabled ". Don't believe this shxt? Then take a look at this:
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-princess-petras-maid-outfit
" The dForce-enabled main dress showcases a high-waisted design, complete with delicate ruffles and a bow at the waist. "
WOW - now that's what I call a really cheeky kidding! Instead of a 3D garment that works with dForce (and has been tested), the customer receives something that has simply been switched on... although switching it on can be done in less than 5 seconds ... even with just one hand and arthritic fingers.
That's the real dForce Madness!
creepy laughter from offstage, slowly fading out ...
Someone said something like this in a forum once - maybe even here on Renderhub?!
Basically, something like this is, of course, everyone's own business/belief/attitude/whatever ... if there weren't producers who take money out of the pockets of these dForce-crazy fools with obscure objects... or rip them off from the start.
Masterstroke gave a great example of this kind of dForce madness in another thread. Take a close look at this dForce product (including the promo images):
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-ultimate-buzzcut-hair-for-genesis-9
Honestly, folks my hair is maybe 2 millimeters longer than what's shown... but I can stand on my head for as long as I want: it doesn't move or follow gravity - nope, nada, niente.
But the dForce madness doesn't end there. And even if you can't create 3D clothing with dForce, you can at least call it " dForce enabled ". Don't believe this shxt? Then take a look at this:
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-princess-petras-maid-outfit
" The dForce-enabled main dress showcases a high-waisted design, complete with delicate ruffles and a bow at the waist. "
WOW - now that's what I call a really cheeky kidding! Instead of a 3D garment that works with dForce (and has been tested), the customer receives something that has simply been switched on... although switching it on can be done in less than 5 seconds ... even with just one hand and arthritic fingers.
That's the real dForce Madness!
creepy laughter from offstage, slowly fading out ...
! REPORT
Nothing prevents returning any dForce garment, but it's up to the buyer to set the correct parameters to get something other than that:
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/58334/nice-but
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/80326/dforce-and-its-default-settings
There's another alternative: dynamic clothing.
I have a few items in my store, including one free so everyone can try it out without any financial risk.
https://www.renderhub.com/guy91600/dynamic-ballet-dress-for-g8f
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/58334/nice-but
https://www.renderhub.com/gallery/80326/dforce-and-its-default-settings
There's another alternative: dynamic clothing.
I have a few items in my store, including one free so everyone can try it out without any financial risk.
https://www.renderhub.com/guy91600/dynamic-ballet-dress-for-g8f
REPLY
! REPORT
I have yet to find good luck with dforce hair for g9, almost all hair now on the daz shop is dforce.
not only is it so slow to use, and slow to simulate, it doesn't work most of the time, some arent rigged great so when you rotate the head the hair just clips through everything. Its frustrating and I wish I knew how to convert dforce to non dforce.
strand based is better just heavy
not only is it so slow to use, and slow to simulate, it doesn't work most of the time, some arent rigged great so when you rotate the head the hair just clips through everything. Its frustrating and I wish I knew how to convert dforce to non dforce.
strand based is better just heavy
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! REPORT
Luxe Muse
Karma: 9,329
Fri, Jan 02One of the hairs I had from an author Pushe-Ri mention above, is a double ponytail, but the ponytails are not rigged. So, good luck using it for anything other than standing straight poses, and make sure your character has a long neck, hi hi hi
Another problem I find myself with is that pose authors do not take into account the possibility that your character might be wearing clothing, hi, hi, hi. They tend to place rotation that should be at the root on the hip, and vice versa, so plenty of poses that should easily transition from A pose to the pose end up having the character spinning to give D-Force yet more reasons to explode.
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! REPORT
Getting dForce right as a maker takes time and mistakes.
Learning to use dForce effectively also take time to master and many mistakes along the way.
Learning to use dForce effectively also take time to master and many mistakes along the way.
REPLY
! REPORT
DoroThee237
Karma: 19,699
Fri, Jan 02Just a hypothesis: dForce and Timeline are commercially released but unfinished products, which explains the user problems:
dForce: explosions, disappearing clothing, and other issues.
Timeline: arms clipping through the body, inability to disable automatic calculation, etc.
dForce: explosions, disappearing clothing, and other issues.
Timeline: arms clipping through the body, inability to disable automatic calculation, etc.
The dForce branded DAZ proprietary hairs, the ones made with the PA-restricted tools, actually are really poor value because they are utterly locked. Can't adjust simulation parameters, can't adjust geometry in any way etc. Most of them are ridiculously heavy in preview, for all that they might render nice. The few that I have are so resource heavy that I just don't like using them. The very short hairs - the ones I tend to like - really don't need to be dForce as you pointed out because real world styled hair is pretty stable, that's what hair spray and gel does! That's what pushed me into trying to model my own hairs, along with the ridiculous sets of 4k full PBR maps that are just dumb as hell for practically every use case..
REPLY
! REPORT
Hi - thank you very much for all your comments 
This thread was actually about how different manufacturers are responding to (or even exploiting) what appears to be a widespread customer demand for " everything must be with dForce " (OK, we're obviously not among those people... but unfortunately we have to live with the excesses of dForce Madness. )
Of course, I agree with you on the hair: instead of dForce, which doesn't work, I prefer Morphs for the hair (the more, the better).
The sad thing about dForce Madness (and the nasty rip-off that sometimes go with it) is: You can create wonderful things with dForce if the objects are carefully crafted and take dForce's peculiarities into account. The more strange products appear that slow down the PC/app (e.g., hair) or explode when the basic pose is changed in the simplest way, the more users may turn away from dForce. And that's a real shame.
This thread was actually about how different manufacturers are responding to (or even exploiting) what appears to be a widespread customer demand for " everything must be with dForce " (OK, we're obviously not among those people... but unfortunately we have to live with the excesses of dForce Madness. )
Of course, I agree with you on the hair: instead of dForce, which doesn't work, I prefer Morphs for the hair (the more, the better).
The sad thing about dForce Madness (and the nasty rip-off that sometimes go with it) is: You can create wonderful things with dForce if the objects are carefully crafted and take dForce's peculiarities into account. The more strange products appear that slow down the PC/app (e.g., hair) or explode when the basic pose is changed in the simplest way, the more users may turn away from dForce. And that's a real shame.
REPLY
! REPORT
Excessive
Karma: 7,854
Fri, Jan 02I never get any detailed feedback (positive or negative) about the dForce clothing items I've made, they seem really straightforward for me to work with myself but I honestly have no idea how they compare to anything sold in the same general category. I love dynamics, it's really satisfying to have something simulate just how you want it to and come out well.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,873
Fri, Jan 02100% agree! It's very satisfying to see your own 3D dForce object in action. I always have a lot of fun trying out different poses with the clothing and seeing what happens.
I assume you're not getting any (negative) feedback because everything is running as it should. And that's great, isn't it?
I assume you're not getting any (negative) feedback because everything is running as it should. And that's great, isn't it?
I don't get the hate for dForce clothing, if the user sticks only to the default settings then it's on them for getting shitty results, so it is not the tech itself, it's on the user.
I love dForce, as it's far better than relying on PAs to make shaping/movement/adjustment morphs, and it's incredibly simple to use, so why the hate?
I love dForce, as it's far better than relying on PAs to make shaping/movement/adjustment morphs, and it's incredibly simple to use, so why the hate?
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! REPORT
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,873
Mon, Jan 19Thanks for your contribution
For me, it's not about hatred (not even dislike), but about what some CCs do so that they can write " with dForce " on their products... even if it is a hoax. Take a look at the examples. And take also a look at my posting from Fri, Jan 02
" if the user sticks only to the default settings then it's on them for getting shitty results, so it is not the tech itself, it's on the user "
I do NOT agree with that 200%.
When a customer spends money on something labeled “dForce,they should be able to expect it to work... without having to deal with the dForce settings first. No one would think of buying a new car if they first had to wire up all the on-board electronics and install and set up the spark plugs in order to be able to drive it.
" I love dForce "
... and so do I
For me, it's not about hatred (not even dislike), but about what some CCs do so that they can write " with dForce " on their products... even if it is a hoax. Take a look at the examples. And take also a look at my posting from Fri, Jan 02
" if the user sticks only to the default settings then it's on them for getting shitty results, so it is not the tech itself, it's on the user "
I do NOT agree with that 200%.
When a customer spends money on something labeled “dForce,they should be able to expect it to work... without having to deal with the dForce settings first. No one would think of buying a new car if they first had to wire up all the on-board electronics and install and set up the spark plugs in order to be able to drive it.
" I love dForce "
... and so do I
guy91600
Karma: 21,408
Mon, Jan 19Perhaps there's a lack of tutorials on how to properly adjust all the settings.
I'm looking for written tutorials, not videos where you can't see exactly where to click because of the resolution.
It is much faster to read a text than to listen and have to translate when the explanation is not in a language one masters
I'm looking for written tutorials, not videos where you can't see exactly where to click because of the resolution.
It is much faster to read a text than to listen and have to translate when the explanation is not in a language one masters
TZO3k1
Karma: 978
Mon, Jan 19Thanks for the measured reply, I love the fact that you did not take what I said personally, like so many others online when they disagree with a point that has been made…
“I do NOT agree with that 200%.Fair enough, as your car analogy and perspective is sound, and I understand/agree with the logic, however, most 3d/video/image editors/2D progs's default settings are usually shit, generally speaking, that's just the nature of the beast when you have a complex plugin/program with many settings.
As I see the default settings as a stable starting off point, and not as the standard of operation; but to be fair, that's the way I and many others approach plugin/progs we're tinkerers at heart, so we will always re-tune the default settings by… lol, default!
So for me, the first thing I expect out of new software is to customise it, so I never use the default settings, which is admittedly a personal preference not shared by others, which is more than fair as I readily accept other perspectives in order to get, lol, perspective! ;^)
But yes, now things are far more clear as to my question of the general dislike/complaints about dForce that I would have never fully understood, as I would have had my own perspective to go on, which is not ideal for any growth, or perspective on the matter, so thanks for the clarity!
“I do NOT agree with that 200%.Fair enough, as your car analogy and perspective is sound, and I understand/agree with the logic, however, most 3d/video/image editors/2D progs's default settings are usually shit, generally speaking, that's just the nature of the beast when you have a complex plugin/program with many settings.
As I see the default settings as a stable starting off point, and not as the standard of operation; but to be fair, that's the way I and many others approach plugin/progs we're tinkerers at heart, so we will always re-tune the default settings by… lol, default!
So for me, the first thing I expect out of new software is to customise it, so I never use the default settings, which is admittedly a personal preference not shared by others, which is more than fair as I readily accept other perspectives in order to get, lol, perspective! ;^)
But yes, now things are far more clear as to my question of the general dislike/complaints about dForce that I would have never fully understood, as I would have had my own perspective to go on, which is not ideal for any growth, or perspective on the matter, so thanks for the clarity!
guy91600
Karma: 21,408
Mon, Jan 19@Pushee-Ri
I remember reading it at the time and thinking I needed to take the time to study seriously. Two years already and...
I need to sit down and take the time to understand how the dForce parameters influence the behavior of clothing.
I remember reading it at the time and thinking I needed to take the time to study seriously. Two years already and...
I need to sit down and take the time to understand how the dForce parameters influence the behavior of clothing.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,873
Mon, Jan 19@guy:
There is something called " dForce Surface Adjuster "
I've never used it myself, and it only has a few basic settings... but maybe it will help you figure out some of the secrets. One thing to note: unfortunately, dForce can't be used to create a realistic fabric simulation like in Blender (where you can choose between different types of fabric).
With the dForce enabled object selected use
Edit -> Object -> Geometry -> dForce Surface Adjuster
There is something called " dForce Surface Adjuster "
I've never used it myself, and it only has a few basic settings... but maybe it will help you figure out some of the secrets. One thing to note: unfortunately, dForce can't be used to create a realistic fabric simulation like in Blender (where you can choose between different types of fabric).
With the dForce enabled object selected use
Edit -> Object -> Geometry -> dForce Surface Adjuster
guy91600
Karma: 21,408
Mon, Jan 19Thanks for the info, it allowed me to add a bit of humor to this thread
TZO3k1
Karma: 978
Wed, Jan 21Cool, I'm glad that it had a positive effect!
To be honest I haven't done much of a deep-dive with dForce as I've mostly been using it for various skimp-wear and with hair, and by deep-dive I mean utilising it with body parts and the like, which may be my next venture…
To be honest I haven't done much of a deep-dive with dForce as I've mostly been using it for various skimp-wear and with hair, and by deep-dive I mean utilising it with body parts and the like, which may be my next venture…
" I only buy DAZ products with dForce now! "
I can't quite remember now, but that sentence could have been mine!
To be honest, I have no problems with DFORCE hair or clothing! I'm not sure if I'll have the time, but maybe I'll make some tutorials for DFORCE where I go into the settings for different, specific clothing and hair! At the moment, I'm busy with the ongoing competition and still have to compose two more pieces of music, which is taking up more time than it should!
I can't quite remember now, but that sentence could have been mine!
To be honest, I have no problems with DFORCE hair or clothing! I'm not sure if I'll have the time, but maybe I'll make some tutorials for DFORCE where I go into the settings for different, specific clothing and hair! At the moment, I'm busy with the ongoing competition and still have to compose two more pieces of music, which is taking up more time than it should!REPLY
! REPORT
guy91600
Karma: 21,408
Mon, Jan 19Thanks, dForce tutorials are a great idea because it's not easy to understand the role of the parameters!
AlfRaMusic
Karma: 16,633
Mon, Jan 19I will do it, I should have written that earlier, I just can't say exactly when!
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,873
Mon, Jan 19Just something to start with:
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/5398/daz-control-of-the-simulation-behavior
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/5398/daz-control-of-the-simulation-behavior
With the dForce enabled object selected use
Edit -> Object -> Geometry -> dForce Surface Adjuster
Parodying Sergio Leone film titles:
For a few parameters more
Edit -> Object -> Geometry -> dForce Surface Adjuster
Parodying Sergio Leone film titles:
For a few parameters more
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! REPORT
When you've spent time posing and putting in a lot of work, and then you finally press Simulate, only to realize you haven't saved your scene... and of course, DAZ freezes, because it must. 
REPLY
! REPORT
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,873
Wed, Jan 21Yep, that's more than annoying!!! Thank you for this example of another form of dForce Madness
It sometimes annoys me when the " Intro " (the window with the recalculation of the vertices that appears before the actual simulation for complex objects) is so long (and boring) that I have to resort to the Task Manager
It sometimes annoys me when the " Intro " (the window with the recalculation of the vertices that appears before the actual simulation for complex objects) is so long (and boring) that I have to resort to the Task Manager