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GLBEVERYTHING MUST GO!! 1000% OFF!!
1,750Thread Activity
vulcanisMon, Jul 20
bonjMon, Jul 20
Pushee-RiMon, Jul 20
Luxe MuseMon, Jul 20
AnasSecretMon, Jul 20
ElorMon, Jul 20
ElorMon, Jul 20
Pushee-RiMon, Jul 20
Luxe MuseMon, Jul 20
Pushee-RiMon, Jul 20
Anything anybody wants to retain a copy of from my freebie listings, you should get a copy now, because I will be deleting them in the next few days and they won't be downloadable from here any more. Thanks!
https://www.renderhub.com/excessive
https://www.renderhub.com/excessive
! REPORT
The only problem with your excellent free items is that you won't take any money for them. I find that intolerable!
Please take a few bucks!
Please take a few bucks!
REPLY
! REPORT
PasahRi
Karma: 7,398
Mon, Jul 13I totally agree!!!!
(Excessive), could you at least make one of your products available for purchase and list it here? I'd be happy to support you within the limits of my wallet.
(Excessive), could you at least make one of your products available for purchase and list it here? I'd be happy to support you within the limits of my wallet.
Hopefully they are on for a little while because that 5 items per day download limit that this page has these is defientelly making things difficult. =..=
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Hyp-St
Karma: 16,360
Mon, Jul 13Was this always the case, though? I didn't notice it before. The 5 items per day download
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,131
Mon, Jul 13@Hyp-St
I don't remember seeing any notice about downloading freebies when I first joined here. So, in my opinion, this is a change that was made later on.
I don't remember seeing any notice about downloading freebies when I first joined here. So, in my opinion, this is a change that was made later on.
Wolf007
Karma: 319
Mon, Jul 13The limit of 5 is relatively recent, i think around a month or so.
Before that i saw it 1at 0, but don't know when it was implemented as i wasn't very active here.
Before that i saw it 1at 0, but don't know when it was implemented as i wasn't very active here.
wesley23
Karma: 2,529
Mon, Jul 13The download limit for free items has been around since I joined this site. It's not recent.
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Fri, Jul 17Yes, I have seen the download limit pop up before, so that's not new. But the notice of how many free downloads you have left IS somewhat new. I think that's an OK limit to keep the freebie hoarders from scraping the site.
vulcanis
Karma: 220
Mon, Jul 20The limit used to be 10. Within the last few months it dropped to 5. I think it is ridiculous, personally.
Thanks! Your simple puddle is better than most of the paid puddles from here and the official Daz store.
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Thanks for letting us know. Will your stuff still be available elsewhere?
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! REPORT
Excessive
Karma: 7,854
Mon, Jul 13The files themselves will still be on Google Drive, and anything that I have at Renderosity will remain there; I haven't picked another host yet for the adult content. When I do I'll try to communicate it here, not sure if that will be permitted by site admin though \o/
I never noticed your store on Renderosity, I'll have to go look. Same vendor name as here?
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sunkissedpapayas
Karma: 821
Mon, Jul 13Thank You Excessive. I do have a few of your freebies and really like them. Never realized you were over there also. I know I've seen you on DAZ site in the forums.
diogenese19348
Karma: 761
Mon, Jul 13found you and following. Looks like you do freebies but don't have a store which is why I never noticed 
I'm FlagonsWorkshop over there.
I'm FlagonsWorkshop over there.
Damn, sorry you're leaving.
Your dresses and poses were a big help to me when I was just starting out, and didn't have many assets.
Your dresses and poses were a big help to me when I was just starting out, and didn't have many assets.
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Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,131
Thu, Jul 16I wish you all the luck in the world for everything you have planned.
I am saddened that a quality vendor has closed up shop. I hadn't checked this post, but received product update notices for Excessive's products. Being skeptical in the current climate, I added a "-u" to the file name before downloading. Glad I did because the update file is 115 b and a null file. Not sure who updated but it would have over ridden the download file .
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! REPORT
@Excessive
If it was intentional to include empty archives with all your products, then what you just did is dishonest toward the people who trust you. You have also cast discredit on everyone else who offers products, whether free or paid.
If it was intentional to include empty archives with all your products, then what you just did is dishonest toward the people who trust you. You have also cast discredit on everyone else who offers products, whether free or paid.
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! REPORT
DirkyD
Karma: 10,014
Fri, Jul 17I feel this may have been the intent!
I know I am now reluctant to install the updates that have popped up since the announcement, unless from a select few vendors I have engaged with and have confidence in.
I know I am now reluctant to install the updates that have popped up since the announcement, unless from a select few vendors I have engaged with and have confidence in.
guy91600
Karma: 20,764
Fri, Jul 17The advice I can give is not to use DIM when possible. For my part, all my products are installed manually and archived in ZIP format.
DirkyD
Karma: 10,014
Fri, Jul 17Same, I only use DIM for Daz store, and have all my other products Zips saved separately.
Just checked my update quote and all the recent ones (9-8 hours ago) are Excessives, which I am going to ignore.
Just checked my update quote and all the recent ones (9-8 hours ago) are Excessives, which I am going to ignore.
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Fri, Jul 17Totally dishonest and disrespectful. And the true definition of their "Excessive" username.
"exceeding what is usual, proper, necessary, or normal"
"exceeding what is usual, proper, necessary, or normal"
ROFL 
Now that's what I call a grand exit!
Chapeau, Excessive... and farewell, wherever life may take you
Now that's what I call a grand exit!
Chapeau, Excessive... and farewell, wherever life may take you
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3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Fri, Jul 17WOW! You're quite the hypocrite, aren't you? You want to bash RenderHub lately every chance you get for making a difficult business decision, and then SUPPORT Excessive for making a calculated move that disrespects and screws over people who downloaded his products? That's crazy, dude.
I used to enjoy reading your forum posts and thought you were pretty cool. With your recent posts across several different threads here, you sure managed to change my mind. Nice job.
And why are you running around posting with Pushee-Ri / PasahRi alt accounts in the same thread? I'm starting to think you have some "internal issues" that you need to sort out. Maybe you should give each other a timeout and step away from the keyboard for a while.
I used to enjoy reading your forum posts and thought you were pretty cool. With your recent posts across several different threads here, you sure managed to change my mind. Nice job.
And why are you running around posting with Pushee-Ri / PasahRi alt accounts in the same thread? I'm starting to think you have some "internal issues" that you need to sort out. Maybe you should give each other a timeout and step away from the keyboard for a while.
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Fri, Jul 17@PasahRi Done in true artistic style
I think they did the right thing, you wouldn't move house and leave things behind would you? Nice and tidy with no loose ends.
You can still find them online so no real big deal. Good luck excessive, see you around.
I think they did the right thing, you wouldn't move house and leave things behind would you? Nice and tidy with no loose ends.
You can still find them online so no real big deal. Good luck excessive, see you around.
PasahRi
Karma: 7,398
Fri, Jul 17@3Difital
If you'd taken the time to read my posts more carefully, you would have known that the posts were never about the purge itself, but about the way it was communicated. Apparently, that's hard for you to understand. You'd rather take the easy way out and twist the truth... or ignore it altogether.
From the very beginning (that is, right after I created my PasahRi account), I made it clear that these are one and the same person, and that my PasahRi account is for NSFW content and my Pushee account is for SFW content. Since you’re not taking this into account either, I assume your accusations are motivated by malice and underhandedness.
From Fri, Jul 26, 2024:
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/8069/pushee-ri-and-pasahri-same-but-different
I wish you all the best in life... but you might want to be a little more careful with your accusations in the future.
If you'd taken the time to read my posts more carefully, you would have known that the posts were never about the purge itself, but about the way it was communicated. Apparently, that's hard for you to understand. You'd rather take the easy way out and twist the truth... or ignore it altogether.
From the very beginning (that is, right after I created my PasahRi account), I made it clear that these are one and the same person, and that my PasahRi account is for NSFW content and my Pushee account is for SFW content. Since you’re not taking this into account either, I assume your accusations are motivated by malice and underhandedness.
From Fri, Jul 26, 2024:
https://www.renderhub.com/forum/8069/pushee-ri-and-pasahri-same-but-different
I wish you all the best in life... but you might want to be a little more careful with your accusations in the future.
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Sun, Jul 19Sorry, but your explanation makes no sense. I've seen you "talking to yourself" in the forum - posting with one alt account and then replying to yourself with the other.
I wish you all the best in life... But you might want to be a little more careful with your explanations in the future.
I wish you all the best in life... But you might want to be a little more careful with your explanations in the future.
I've never seen anything like it!
Accounts have been closed before, but the products remain available for download!
Accounts have been closed before, but the products remain available for download!
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! REPORT
Excessive, you are an incredible artist, but please undo what you did. People aren't to blame for what happened, not the customers.
I was very upset when a customer decided to pirate the products I offered. I even took a few offline, and started charging for a few I had on free. But I would never do something like that, as many others have bought them and don't deserve punishment for the sins of a few.
I was very upset when a customer decided to pirate the products I offered. I even took a few offline, and started charging for a few I had on free. But I would never do something like that, as many others have bought them and don't deserve punishment for the sins of a few.
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DoroThee237
Karma: 19,175
Fri, Jul 17I completely agree; just because you disapprove of the management's attitude doesn't mean you should penalize your own customers. You are also undermining the trust your customers place in you as a seller—this action will follow you.
Not Excessive
Karma: 113
Sat, Jul 18I'm not a seller actually, and you don't own my content, nobody owns it but me. Wild that you're talking about pirated content in this context also!
Luxe Muse
Karma: 8,944
Sat, Jul 18It was meant as a personal anecdote (the piracy comment), but, my concern was more for you not to damage your reputation. However, like you said, it's your content, okay, but when you go to a place and they give you something to try, i.e. say food. Would it make you happy if you don't buy anything from that place and they force you to throw up what they give you to try? I don't think so.
Not Excessive
Karma: 113
Sat, Jul 18I'm not in it for my reputation, I'm not a seller, and if you don't want to download my free content in the future that's A-OK with me!
DoroThee237
Karma: 19,175
Sat, Jul 18You have people around you who know you create 3D content and distribute it for free. They will view your reliability differently the day they find out what you did: replacing your products with empty archives.
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Sun, Jul 19@Not Excessive / Excessive / pjz99:
You might not be "in it" for your reputation, but you sure have one now.
Right now, you're being seen as a spiteful creator who can't be trusted. But you can work on changing that with an apology to the community. Go ahead and try it! The Post Your Comment form is right there at the bottom of this page.
You might not be "in it" for your reputation, but you sure have one now.
Right now, you're being seen as a spiteful creator who can't be trusted. But you can work on changing that with an apology to the community. Go ahead and try it! The Post Your Comment form is right there at the bottom of this page.
We have investigated this issue and confirmed that the product packages had been intentionally replaced with empty files.
To rectify the situation, we have removed the empty files and restored the previous product packages. They can now be downloaded as expected.
As outlined in our Community Code of Conduct:
"Users are prohibited from engaging in any activity ... with the explicit intent to disrupt or negatively affect the normal operations of the RenderHub community."
https://www.renderhub.com/info/code-of-conduct
To prevent any further misuse, we have blocked access to the account.
We apologize for any inconvenience this caused and appreciate everyone who brought the issue to our attention.
To rectify the situation, we have removed the empty files and restored the previous product packages. They can now be downloaded as expected.
As outlined in our Community Code of Conduct:
"Users are prohibited from engaging in any activity ... with the explicit intent to disrupt or negatively affect the normal operations of the RenderHub community."
https://www.renderhub.com/info/code-of-conduct
To prevent any further misuse, we have blocked access to the account.
We apologize for any inconvenience this caused and appreciate everyone who brought the issue to our attention.
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! REPORT
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sat, Jul 18@renderhub
I think you are actually wrong in this case. Reason being excessive provided FREE assets.
If the assets were paid then Renderhub are right in reinstating the products. However the assets are free and as such no customer has paid any money thus is does not effect, disrupt or negatively affect the normal operations of the RenderHub community.
It is important for an artist to retain the ip. If we give away assets the ip is all we have left, please respect that.
Additionally what happens if in the near or distant future renderhub changes the policy and trains it's own ai using the assets ?
If we are kind enough to promote your site with our free assets please respect our choice to stop at any time and discontinue the free items if we request it.
I understand your site terms but this is a two way contract. Let me say that again. The contract between the producer and the distributor is a two way deal. Stop taking advantage.
I think you are actually wrong in this case. Reason being excessive provided FREE assets.
If the assets were paid then Renderhub are right in reinstating the products. However the assets are free and as such no customer has paid any money thus is does not effect, disrupt or negatively affect the normal operations of the RenderHub community.
It is important for an artist to retain the ip. If we give away assets the ip is all we have left, please respect that.
Additionally what happens if in the near or distant future renderhub changes the policy and trains it's own ai using the assets ?
If we are kind enough to promote your site with our free assets please respect our choice to stop at any time and discontinue the free items if we request it.
I understand your site terms but this is a two way contract. Let me say that again. The contract between the producer and the distributor is a two way deal. Stop taking advantage.
MarkuMark
Karma: 119
Sat, Jul 18Free items remain "discontinue".
Only the ability to download previously distributed items has been restored.
Only the ability to download previously distributed items has been restored.
diogenese19348
Karma: 761
Sat, Jul 18The same free items are still over at Renderosity under the vendor name pjz99. You can download them there.
Not Excessive
Karma: 113
Sat, Jul 18Hi, this is the owner of the copyrighted content that you've chosen to distribute against my explicit license. You do not own this content, none of your users own this content, and you don't have the right to distribute it. You should take it back down immediately.
Blocking my account so I'm not able to respond was incidentally pretty shitty! But the main thing is, you're distributing my content unlawfully. Reconsider.
Blocking my account so I'm not able to respond was incidentally pretty shitty! But the main thing is, you're distributing my content unlawfully. Reconsider.
Not Excessive
Karma: 113
Sat, Jul 18There isn't anything in your site policy that even obliquely grants you the right to do this, your site admin is 100% in the wrong here both legally and ethically.
deathd
Karma: 1,655
Sat, Jul 18far as I can tell your store is gone, renderhub is just stopping you from sabotaging the ability of people that already bought your items from getting the copy they purchased while your store was open again if need be.
diogenese19348
Karma: 761
Sat, Jul 18Nobody purchased anything, they were all freebies. It doesn't change the fact that RH is just providing continuity, I think it's an important thing to point out though, nobody paid for anything.
deathd
Karma: 1,655
Sat, Jul 18well checking out for free, they were still offered the item, and decided to take up the offer. Retraoactively taking back that offer due to a dispute with RH is not a cool thing IMO. It's taking it out on the wrong people.
deathd
Karma: 1,655
Sat, Jul 18https://www.renderhub.com/info/terms-of-use#p05
The TOS of the site, particularly
18. TERMINATION
18.1 Termination by You. You may terminate your account with RenderHub at any time by Contacting Us. Terminating your account will not affect the availability of some of Your Content that you posted to the Site prior to termination.
is the relevant part. I knew there was something like that in there.
The TOS of the site, particularly
18. TERMINATION
18.1 Termination by You. You may terminate your account with RenderHub at any time by Contacting Us. Terminating your account will not affect the availability of some of Your Content that you posted to the Site prior to termination.
is the relevant part. I knew there was something like that in there.
Wolf007
Karma: 319
Sat, Jul 18Extract from content Licensing definitions:
"Purchase – the acquisition of a Digital Asset by you from the Site under this Agreement, whether you purchase a Digital Asset at a price greater than $0, or download a Digital Asset at no charge."
Ergo, even if all products were freebies, they still count as purchase and Renderhub not only has the right, it has the obligation to keep allowing people to download them (at least for a reasonable time after people 'adquired' them). In other sites you may directly download the freebies, in here they are added to your downloads (that works as internal library), same as any other purchases.
So, Excessive, i have nothing against you and actually have plenty against RH for mishandling the recent fiasco, but i suggest you get a lawer because they are not only not pirating, what you did can probably get you into legal problems.
"Purchase – the acquisition of a Digital Asset by you from the Site under this Agreement, whether you purchase a Digital Asset at a price greater than $0, or download a Digital Asset at no charge."
Ergo, even if all products were freebies, they still count as purchase and Renderhub not only has the right, it has the obligation to keep allowing people to download them (at least for a reasonable time after people 'adquired' them). In other sites you may directly download the freebies, in here they are added to your downloads (that works as internal library), same as any other purchases.
So, Excessive, i have nothing against you and actually have plenty against RH for mishandling the recent fiasco, but i suggest you get a lawer because they are not only not pirating, what you did can probably get you into legal problems.
Not Excessive
Karma: 113
Sat, Jul 18I doubt that, but in any case I won't be back here in the future.
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sat, Jul 18Whatever the TOS it would be a good gesture if the items were made unavailable as the artist has requested. I may be wrong but they are all free so nobody has a claim.
Consider it a gesture to the artist and show us some support, were up against the wall right now and have very little solid ground to stand on.
Consider it a gesture to the artist and show us some support, were up against the wall right now and have very little solid ground to stand on.
diogenese19348
Karma: 761
Sat, Jul 18The items in question are no longer being offered here to anybody, what they are still in are people's download lists. In other words if you already set it up to be downloaded you still can, if you didn't you can't find it here. This is also the same policy for any items you have paid for, they are no longer available for sale, you can download them at any time. Including the adult items that are no longer here.
That is in the TOS people agree to when they uploaded items here.
Personally I would not like to see RH set a precedent of making items in my download list no longer downloadable. though I do understand Excessive's issue
That is in the TOS people agree to when they uploaded items here.
Personally I would not like to see RH set a precedent of making items in my download list no longer downloadable. though I do understand Excessive's issue
PasahRi
Karma: 7,398
Sat, Jul 18There's something called 'perpetual downloads.' That should also be mentioned somewhere in the Terms of Service. 'Perpetual downloads' are about giving customers who have purchased a product the ability to continue downloading it (even if the provider closes its store), for example, if their hard drive crashes or they lose the product for some other reason.
For purchased products, this 'perpetual downloads' rule is good and desirable.
Renderhub has now applied this rule (regardless of whether it's mentioned in the TOS or not) to Excessive's freebies... even though anyone who can read knows where to download the freebies. That leaves a bad taste ....
Now that Excessive has been hurt by the externally ordered purge (yes, I know: it had to be done to keep Renderhub running as a whole) in a way that none of the Leechers ranting here can even imagine, this repeated kicking while he’s down is unbearable.
It would have been better for Excessive to simply disable all of the products in Product Manager and keep the account, checking every now and then to make sure the products are still disabled.
For purchased products, this 'perpetual downloads' rule is good and desirable.
Renderhub has now applied this rule (regardless of whether it's mentioned in the TOS or not) to Excessive's freebies... even though anyone who can read knows where to download the freebies. That leaves a bad taste ....
Now that Excessive has been hurt by the externally ordered purge (yes, I know: it had to be done to keep Renderhub running as a whole) in a way that none of the Leechers ranting here can even imagine, this repeated kicking while he’s down is unbearable.
It would have been better for Excessive to simply disable all of the products in Product Manager and keep the account, checking every now and then to make sure the products are still disabled.
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Sun, Jul 19@Bonj: From reading your two posts, I think you're misunderstanding what really happened here.
RenderHub did not "reinstate the products". They restored the product PACKAGES.
The creator deleted their product pages, and that is absolutely their right to do that. The product pages remain deleted, so RenderHub made no changes there.
But the creator also "updated" their product packages to include EMPTY FILES, which is just wrong in so many ways. Those product packages are what RenderHub restored.
If potentially thousands of people were affected by these bogus product "updates", how could you possibly think that is NOT disrupting or negatively affecting the normal operations of the community?
RenderHub did not "reinstate the products". They restored the product PACKAGES.
The creator deleted their product pages, and that is absolutely their right to do that. The product pages remain deleted, so RenderHub made no changes there.
But the creator also "updated" their product packages to include EMPTY FILES, which is just wrong in so many ways. Those product packages are what RenderHub restored.
If potentially thousands of people were affected by these bogus product "updates", how could you possibly think that is NOT disrupting or negatively affecting the normal operations of the community?
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sun, Jul 19@3Digital I did understand, That's perfectly fine for paid products but free products are in some ways more personal as a marketing item as they belong to the artist and should be used by the artist to promote themselves.
It has been this way for most asset sites for the past 20 years. It would be appreciated if whatever site we distribute from respect our own TOS.
Unfortunately with all sites there is no such discussion.
We already pay out 50 percent on average in royalties and software is expensive. After tax there's not a lot left.
Freebies promote the artist who made them. Sorry guys if you disagree, your welcome to make your own.
It has been this way for most asset sites for the past 20 years. It would be appreciated if whatever site we distribute from respect our own TOS.
Unfortunately with all sites there is no such discussion.
We already pay out 50 percent on average in royalties and software is expensive. After tax there's not a lot left.
Freebies promote the artist who made them. Sorry guys if you disagree, your welcome to make your own.
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Sun, Jul 19@bonj:
I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I really don't think you understand what happened.
But if you truly understand what happened, I'd like to ask you this:
Do you think it's OK for a creator to mess with thousands of people who previously downloaded their products, by doing a mass "update" that replaced all the product packages with EMPTY FILES?
For my question, it doesn't matter if they were paid products or free. I would just like to know... Do you think that is acceptable behavior?
I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I really don't think you understand what happened.
But if you truly understand what happened, I'd like to ask you this:
Do you think it's OK for a creator to mess with thousands of people who previously downloaded their products, by doing a mass "update" that replaced all the product packages with EMPTY FILES?
For my question, it doesn't matter if they were paid products or free. I would just like to know... Do you think that is acceptable behavior?
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sun, Jul 19@3digital
RE "Do you think it's OK for a creator to mess with thousands of people who previously downloaded their products, by doing a mass "update" that replaced all the product packages with EMPTY FILES?"
No not really but as I explain bellow in another reply to yourself, under the current Tos excessive had no choice and it was not malicious towards the community. It was the only way to secure control of their free marketing items.
It's great to see an artist standing up for themselves as we are often taken advantage of. I stand with excessive's decision and if this is so important to both sides of the argument then let's have a reasonable discussion. Set a new benchmark for both artist and asset stores.
This is an opportunity to support the people who produce the models.
RE "Do you think it's OK for a creator to mess with thousands of people who previously downloaded their products, by doing a mass "update" that replaced all the product packages with EMPTY FILES?"
No not really but as I explain bellow in another reply to yourself, under the current Tos excessive had no choice and it was not malicious towards the community. It was the only way to secure control of their free marketing items.
It's great to see an artist standing up for themselves as we are often taken advantage of. I stand with excessive's decision and if this is so important to both sides of the argument then let's have a reasonable discussion. Set a new benchmark for both artist and asset stores.
This is an opportunity to support the people who produce the models.
To me, giving something away for free, even after the artist has taken it down and indicated that they don't want it available here, is no better then piracy. The site is benefiting from these freebies because they attract people to the site. This is a downright sleazy business practice. ALL artists should leave here and sell somewhere else. That'll fix them!
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! REPORT
PasahRi
Karma: 7,398
Sat, Jul 18'The site is benefiting from these freebies because they attract people to the site.'
You're right about that! I wrote something similar earlier, and a Leecher accused me of spreading conspiracy theories. Apparently, for some people (especially Leechers), downloading massive amounts of content leaves no room for thinking or empathy - which effectively puts them in the same camp as the Pirates, who not only steal from 3D developers but also mock them.
You're right about that! I wrote something similar earlier, and a Leecher accused me of spreading conspiracy theories. Apparently, for some people (especially Leechers), downloading massive amounts of content leaves no room for thinking or empathy - which effectively puts them in the same camp as the Pirates, who not only steal from 3D developers but also mock them.
Wolf007
Karma: 319
Sat, Jul 18QUOTE: "The site is benefiting from these freebies because they attract people to the site."
Again, i have no simpaty for RH lately, but have you actually paid atention to the issue before writing? How can items that are NOT LISTED anymore attract people to the site?
Again, i have no simpaty for RH lately, but have you actually paid atention to the issue before writing? How can items that are NOT LISTED anymore attract people to the site?
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Sun, Jul 19@Bobb: LOL!!! Another hypocrite has joined the chat. Earlier in this thread, before the truth came out, you said:
"Glad I saw this. I downloaded the updates but stuck them in a separate directory. I'm not going to blame Excessive, this may have been either automatic or done by a vindictive management."
Now that the truth is out, you want to blame management for correcting the actions of a vindictive creator?
"Glad I saw this. I downloaded the updates but stuck them in a separate directory. I'm not going to blame Excessive, this may have been either automatic or done by a vindictive management."
Now that the truth is out, you want to blame management for correcting the actions of a vindictive creator?
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Sun, Jul 19@Wolf007: I actually think Bobb knows EXACTLY what the issue is, and is trying to inflame the situation with this rage bait post.
Rage baiting is a violation of the TOU here, so I wouldn't be surprised if all comments in this sub-thread get removed sometime soon.
Rage baiting is a violation of the TOU here, so I wouldn't be surprised if all comments in this sub-thread get removed sometime soon.
guy91600
Karma: 20,764
Sun, Jul 19When I was young, people used to say, "Giving is giving; taking back is stealing."
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Quand j'étais petit on disait " Donner c'est donner. Reprendre c'est voler'
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Quand j'étais petit on disait " Donner c'est donner. Reprendre c'est voler'
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sun, Jul 19@3digital reference "@Bobb: LOL!!! Another hypocrite has joined the chat.".
Actually I thing Bob was good enough to look at the issue from an alternative perspective, re-evaluated it with more information and changed his mind. That is a sign of a balanced and mature person. We are all capable of looking at a situation, even under certain terms and agreements, then rethink , even re-negotiate them to suit an evolving marketplace.
Renderhub wants the support of whats Left of the community then in turn please support the artist , model maker and producer that make this site what it is today. Adjust the terms for free assets or make it an optional thing, problem solved.
Actually I thing Bob was good enough to look at the issue from an alternative perspective, re-evaluated it with more information and changed his mind. That is a sign of a balanced and mature person. We are all capable of looking at a situation, even under certain terms and agreements, then rethink , even re-negotiate them to suit an evolving marketplace.
Renderhub wants the support of whats Left of the community then in turn please support the artist , model maker and producer that make this site what it is today. Adjust the terms for free assets or make it an optional thing, problem solved.
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sun, Jul 19@guy91600
My Gran had a similar phrase but I couldn't repeat it in public today. She had a saying for every occasion I still remember them all today.
She's been gone a long time now but wow she was wise. Started life as a tap dancer in London during the war only aged 15.
I digress , sorry.
I understand your perspective but if someone wishes there free items to follow them online then it should be a simple thing and respected.
My Gran had a similar phrase but I couldn't repeat it in public today. She had a saying for every occasion I still remember them all today.
She's been gone a long time now but wow she was wise. Started life as a tap dancer in London during the war only aged 15.
I digress , sorry.
I understand your perspective but if someone wishes there free items to follow them online then it should be a simple thing and respected.
PasahRi
Karma: 7,398
Sun, Jul 19@Guy
But people also say - then as now: if you get something for free, say thank you.
And now take a look at the profiles/stats of the low-karma Leechers here:
No gallery posts - so no “thank yourenders for freebies they’ve downloaded
Hardly any likes given - so probably no likes for freebies they’ve downloaded
No ratings - so no ratings given for freebies they’ve downloaded
Back then and today, people like that are considered rude, right?
But people also say - then as now: if you get something for free, say thank you.
And now take a look at the profiles/stats of the low-karma Leechers here:
No gallery posts - so no “thank yourenders for freebies they’ve downloaded
Hardly any likes given - so probably no likes for freebies they’ve downloaded
No ratings - so no ratings given for freebies they’ve downloaded
Back then and today, people like that are considered rude, right?
3Digital
Karma: 1,840
Sun, Jul 19@bonj:
"Actually I thing Bob was good enough to look at the issue from an alternative perspective, re-evaluated it with more information and changed his mind"
THAT'S what you got out of this? You have got to be kidding. If not, you very much sound like a Bobb alt. LOL
"Actually I thing Bob was good enough to look at the issue from an alternative perspective, re-evaluated it with more information and changed his mind"
THAT'S what you got out of this? You have got to be kidding. If not, you very much sound like a Bobb alt. LOL
guy91600
Karma: 20,764
Sun, Jul 19@PasahRi
Quote
Hardly any likes given - so probably no likes for freebies they've downloaded
No ratings - so no ratings given for freebies they've downloaded
The proof by the example below
Quote
Hardly any likes given - so probably no likes for freebies they've downloaded
No ratings - so no ratings given for freebies they've downloaded
The proof by the example below
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sun, Jul 19@3digital
what is it you want in this thread as an outcome?
Excessive's free items to still be available to those who have already downloaded them, I assume.
That seems quite reasonable as an initial idea. However when we upload a free item there is currently no way to opt out of this when there should be. Why? free items are made by an artist to promote themselves.
Sold items are a different thing altogether as the contract of sale has been made items MUST be available for the buyer.
If we the producer of the free item do not retain our items then we have to make new freebies for every store we sign up to. Whether excessive is selling or offering freebies is irrelevant, A new benchmark is needed to protect our own personal marketing items.
This thread has evolved a little to be a request for renderhub to open a discussion to involve the vendors (as they call us) in modifying the TOS a little to show more support as our industry goes through changes.
What better place for this issue to raise it's head then renderhub? Here we should be able to discuss it sensibly. That is the point of a Forum after all.
Perhaps we could continue this discussion without the aggression. Quite frankly there's nothing you could say to me or call me that another site member has not already done. I have had so much abuse on this site over the past few years I could write a book.
what is it you want in this thread as an outcome?
Excessive's free items to still be available to those who have already downloaded them, I assume.
That seems quite reasonable as an initial idea. However when we upload a free item there is currently no way to opt out of this when there should be. Why? free items are made by an artist to promote themselves.
Sold items are a different thing altogether as the contract of sale has been made items MUST be available for the buyer.
If we the producer of the free item do not retain our items then we have to make new freebies for every store we sign up to. Whether excessive is selling or offering freebies is irrelevant, A new benchmark is needed to protect our own personal marketing items.
This thread has evolved a little to be a request for renderhub to open a discussion to involve the vendors (as they call us) in modifying the TOS a little to show more support as our industry goes through changes.
What better place for this issue to raise it's head then renderhub? Here we should be able to discuss it sensibly. That is the point of a Forum after all.
Perhaps we could continue this discussion without the aggression. Quite frankly there's nothing you could say to me or call me that another site member has not already done. I have had so much abuse on this site over the past few years I could write a book.
@PasahRi
Quote
Hardly any likes given - so probably no likes for freebies they've downloaded
No ratings - so no ratings given for freebies they've downloaded
Proof by example
Quote
Hardly any likes given - so probably no likes for freebies they've downloaded
No ratings - so no ratings given for freebies they've downloaded
Proof by example
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! REPORT
PasahRi
Karma: 7,398
Sun, Jul 19What a great example!
And the very same Leechers who download megabytes here without even saying 'thank you' are now sitting here in this thread complaining that something has been taken away from them. It makes me want to p x ke, believe me.
I’m actually just waiting for my migration to another site—then my (Pushee-Ri) freebies here will be disabled. My PasahRi shop doesn’t even exists anymore
No joy for Leechers
And the very same Leechers who download megabytes here without even saying 'thank you' are now sitting here in this thread complaining that something has been taken away from them. It makes me want to p x ke, believe me.
I’m actually just waiting for my migration to another site—then my (Pushee-Ri) freebies here will be disabled. My PasahRi shop doesn’t even exists anymore
No joy for Leechers
MKDAWUSS
Karma: 80,252
Sun, Jul 19You know, I've got a lengthy backlog of likes and reviews to dole out.
Depending on the asset category, they would eventually start sounding the same after a while.
At least I have gallery tags going for me. LOL
Depending on the asset category, they would eventually start sounding the same after a while.
At least I have gallery tags going for me. LOL
Bobb
Karma: 1,827
Sun, Jul 19I've never liked 'likes'. When I grab something I message the artist and let them know what I liked about it.
I made several forum comments about Excessive's freebies and chatrt3ed with her about them. THAT'S feedback.
I made several forum comments about Excessive's freebies and chatrt3ed with her about them. THAT'S feedback.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,131
Sun, Jul 19@MKDAWUSS
I know from personal experience that you're not a Leecher. And to be honest, I'm sometimes late with my reviews and ratings, too, when I have too many projects on my plate at once.
I know from personal experience that you're not a Leecher. And to be honest, I'm sometimes late with my reviews and ratings, too, when I have too many projects on my plate at once.
@renderhub (in case you don't see it above)
Free items are made by an artist to promote themselves. Please look at the Tos maybe give us an option if we leave freebies behind or retain them for self marketing.
Sold items are a different thing altogether as the contract of sale has been made items MUST be available for the buyer.
If we the producer of the free item do not retain our items then we have to make new freebies for every store we sign up to. Whether excessive is selling or offering freebies is irrelevant, A new benchmark is needed to protect our own personal marketing items.
This thread has evolved a little to be a request for renderhub to open a discussion to involve the vendors (as they call us) in modifying the TOS a little to show more support as our industry goes through changes.
What better place for this issue to raise it's head then renderhub? Here we should be able to discuss it sensibly.
That is the point of a Forum after all and the strength renderhub still has is to give us a voice.
Free items are made by an artist to promote themselves. Please look at the Tos maybe give us an option if we leave freebies behind or retain them for self marketing.
Sold items are a different thing altogether as the contract of sale has been made items MUST be available for the buyer.
If we the producer of the free item do not retain our items then we have to make new freebies for every store we sign up to. Whether excessive is selling or offering freebies is irrelevant, A new benchmark is needed to protect our own personal marketing items.
This thread has evolved a little to be a request for renderhub to open a discussion to involve the vendors (as they call us) in modifying the TOS a little to show more support as our industry goes through changes.
What better place for this issue to raise it's head then renderhub? Here we should be able to discuss it sensibly.
That is the point of a Forum after all and the strength renderhub still has is to give us a voice.
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! REPORT
Elor
Karma: 118
Sun, Jul 19'If we the producer of the free item do not retain our items then we have to make new freebies for every store we sign up to. Whether excessive is selling or offering freebies is irrelevant, A new benchmark is needed to protect our own personal marketing items.'
?
Nothing in the current situation prohibits Excessive from sharing them everywhere he wishes: he's already doing that and did so before joining Renderhub, through his Google Drive, his Renderosity account or his ShareCG accounts (including one he lost access to before ShareCG went online) and possibly other places I don't know about.
Let's say you're moving your shop elsewhere, I don't see what does it change that people who added your freebies to their Renderhub download list still have access to them: anyone who does not will have to get them through your new shop and you're unlikely to tempt someone who already got them to follow you by just sharing the same freebies.
You would likely have pissed a lot of them by removing them from their download list here though: while I understand why someone who's only interested in sharing freebies would go scorched earth to show his disagreement with Renderhub recent decision, it doesn't make any sense to do the same for someone using freebies as a marketing tool to interest people in buying their paid products.
?
Nothing in the current situation prohibits Excessive from sharing them everywhere he wishes: he's already doing that and did so before joining Renderhub, through his Google Drive, his Renderosity account or his ShareCG accounts (including one he lost access to before ShareCG went online) and possibly other places I don't know about.
Let's say you're moving your shop elsewhere, I don't see what does it change that people who added your freebies to their Renderhub download list still have access to them: anyone who does not will have to get them through your new shop and you're unlikely to tempt someone who already got them to follow you by just sharing the same freebies.
You would likely have pissed a lot of them by removing them from their download list here though: while I understand why someone who's only interested in sharing freebies would go scorched earth to show his disagreement with Renderhub recent decision, it doesn't make any sense to do the same for someone using freebies as a marketing tool to interest people in buying their paid products.
bonj
Karma: 15,404
Sun, Jul 19@Elor
Thanks for your balanced and reasonable question. I do understand your perspective but I think there's a point and opportunity here for producers (vendors) to take back a little control of there IP. Long term this will actually improve the marketplace and maybe even encourage more freebies to be shared.
If my online store is hosted by 3dstuffnthings.com and I make a bunch of free products to draw people's interest. But my store is unsuccessful. I make a few little sales but decide to try another site.
Them my free marketing items should go with me to the new store at 3dthingsnstuff.com because they will attract new customers and promote my sales.
Anyone who bought and paid for my products should always have access to them but the free items are a personal marketing item.
It would be proper if asset sites respect this.
That is all we are asking here. Everyone is advised to make a personal archive and backup, especially these day's.
Why are people pissed off? Because the download of a freebie is not as easy to download in one library. It's that much trouble to log into another store to collect a free item. This does not encourage me to offer any more free stuff to be honest.
Thanks for your balanced and reasonable question. I do understand your perspective but I think there's a point and opportunity here for producers (vendors) to take back a little control of there IP. Long term this will actually improve the marketplace and maybe even encourage more freebies to be shared.
If my online store is hosted by 3dstuffnthings.com and I make a bunch of free products to draw people's interest. But my store is unsuccessful. I make a few little sales but decide to try another site.
Them my free marketing items should go with me to the new store at 3dthingsnstuff.com because they will attract new customers and promote my sales.
Anyone who bought and paid for my products should always have access to them but the free items are a personal marketing item.
It would be proper if asset sites respect this.
That is all we are asking here. Everyone is advised to make a personal archive and backup, especially these day's.
Why are people pissed off? Because the download of a freebie is not as easy to download in one library. It's that much trouble to log into another store to collect a free item. This does not encourage me to offer any more free stuff to be honest.
Luxe Muse
Karma: 8,944
Sun, Jul 19It's a reasonable position, @bonj.
The free item though should be disabled from further redownloading and obviously, not offered if the original vendor (even if free, you are a vendor/provider), does not want to share his creation anymore.
The objection I have is the method used. Uploading invalid files, making everyone who got the free ones think it's an update, and therefore, potentially ruing their local copy. That wasn't the right approach.
But I agree in that sense, at least for free items, the vendor should be able to disable them, from additional downloads, or being offered without his consent.
The free item though should be disabled from further redownloading and obviously, not offered if the original vendor (even if free, you are a vendor/provider), does not want to share his creation anymore.
The objection I have is the method used. Uploading invalid files, making everyone who got the free ones think it's an update, and therefore, potentially ruing their local copy. That wasn't the right approach.
But I agree in that sense, at least for free items, the vendor should be able to disable them, from additional downloads, or being offered without his consent.
guy91600
504
@luxe
I agree on this point: at least for free items, the seller should be able to prevent any further downloads or distribution without their consent.
It’s a good idea, but it could easily be abused. For example:
I list a paid product for download.
Then, I switch it to free and block downloads for everyone.
We agree that’s dishonest toward buyers, but I think that’s the risk RenderHub avoids.
Karma: 20,764
Mon, Jul 20504
@luxe
I agree on this point: at least for free items, the seller should be able to prevent any further downloads or distribution without their consent.
It’s a good idea, but it could easily be abused. For example:
I list a paid product for download.
Then, I switch it to free and block downloads for everyone.
We agree that’s dishonest toward buyers, but I think that’s the risk RenderHub avoids.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,131
Mon, Jul 20@Luxe
I have two points for you that might be worth thinking about or reconsidering:
a) Why does everyone assume that Excessive did this with malicious intent? Is there anything in his usual behavior here on the forum or in the gallery that gives reason to accuse him of malice on the spot?
As far as I know, Excessive has never released updates for his freebies—meaning he wasn’t aware of the notifications sent to those who had downloaded his freebies. I assume instead that he simply wanted to make a statement with his departure and no longer wanted to support RH by making his freebies available. Shouldn’t this line of thinking also be taken into account when assessing the events?
b) Excessive has been treated unfairly more than once. I just found out on the dark side that, years ago, Excessive initially posted his freebies on an obscure site. From there, the freebies were downloaded, uploaded to warez sites, and presented by the warez posters as their own work.
Then came the purge (I know: it had to be done to save RH as a whole). As a result, Excessive not only lost large parts of his freebie shop and his gallery submissions, but—due to the gallery purge—he also lost something he had worked tirelessly for over weeks and months: reserving a section of the Mature/18+ gallery for the LGBTQ community. Personally, I find that to be almost the saddest part of the whole thing.
When you put these two points together, a very different picture emerges from the one that the suckle worms are spreading here in such a rude and spiteful way. Don't you agree?
I have two points for you that might be worth thinking about or reconsidering:
a) Why does everyone assume that Excessive did this with malicious intent? Is there anything in his usual behavior here on the forum or in the gallery that gives reason to accuse him of malice on the spot?
As far as I know, Excessive has never released updates for his freebies—meaning he wasn’t aware of the notifications sent to those who had downloaded his freebies. I assume instead that he simply wanted to make a statement with his departure and no longer wanted to support RH by making his freebies available. Shouldn’t this line of thinking also be taken into account when assessing the events?
b) Excessive has been treated unfairly more than once. I just found out on the dark side that, years ago, Excessive initially posted his freebies on an obscure site. From there, the freebies were downloaded, uploaded to warez sites, and presented by the warez posters as their own work.
Then came the purge (I know: it had to be done to save RH as a whole). As a result, Excessive not only lost large parts of his freebie shop and his gallery submissions, but—due to the gallery purge—he also lost something he had worked tirelessly for over weeks and months: reserving a section of the Mature/18+ gallery for the LGBTQ community. Personally, I find that to be almost the saddest part of the whole thing.
When you put these two points together, a very different picture emerges from the one that the suckle worms are spreading here in such a rude and spiteful way. Don't you agree?
Luxe Muse
Karma: 8,944
Mon, Jul 20@Pushe, I didn't imply he had malicious intent. Only that the outcome might be in detriment to his image (if he plans to continue on other sites, the image will follow him).
He replied to me in a way that wasn't very friendly, which is fine, everyone has bad days, and at the end of the day, I'm just another internet user giving unsolicited advice, I get that.
He replied to me in a way that wasn't very friendly, which is fine, everyone has bad days, and at the end of the day, I'm just another internet user giving unsolicited advice, I get that.
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,131
Mon, Jul 20@Luxe
Hey—I definitely didn’t mean to step on your toes with my post. If that’s how it came across, I’m really, really,really sorry. I just wanted to share some information to help you understand Excessive and its plot a little better. As punishment for maybe writing something confusing or misleading to you, I’ll now walk around in sackcloth and ashes all day and break at least 122 twigs over my head. Seriously
Hey—I definitely didn’t mean to step on your toes with my post. If that’s how it came across, I’m really, really,really sorry. I just wanted to share some information to help you understand Excessive and its plot a little better. As punishment for maybe writing something confusing or misleading to you, I’ll now walk around in sackcloth and ashes all day and break at least 122 twigs over my head. Seriously
Elor
Karma: 118
Mon, Jul 20@bonj > 'Why are people pissed off?'
It's not exactly rocket science you know: you give something, you create good will, you take it away, the good will is gone and on top of that, you have generated bad will / anger.
The expectation on Renderhub (and on most of the stores selling Daz content: there is one exception and surprise surprise, it generated bad will when temporary freebies were removed from people's accounts without a warning) is that if something is in your product library / download list, you can access it at anytime until that website goes offline.
Breaking that expectation will get people angry and while that anger will likely not last that long for someone who's only sharing freebies, if you're expecting people to give you money, let me tell you again it's not the grand marketing move you think it is.
If you want absolute control regarding your freebies, don't share them on website that allows users to add them to their products library / download list.
@Pushee-Ri > 'As far as I know, Excessive has never released updates for his freebies'
You're wrong: I reported various bugs in his freebies and he did fix some of them, deploying the fixes on every site hosting his freebies at the time, including Renderhub.
There is no need to find an excuse to Excessive or to diminish his agency: he clearly explained he's fine with the outcome of replacing files with empty ones.
It's not exactly rocket science you know: you give something, you create good will, you take it away, the good will is gone and on top of that, you have generated bad will / anger.
The expectation on Renderhub (and on most of the stores selling Daz content: there is one exception and surprise surprise, it generated bad will when temporary freebies were removed from people's accounts without a warning) is that if something is in your product library / download list, you can access it at anytime until that website goes offline.
Breaking that expectation will get people angry and while that anger will likely not last that long for someone who's only sharing freebies, if you're expecting people to give you money, let me tell you again it's not the grand marketing move you think it is.
If you want absolute control regarding your freebies, don't share them on website that allows users to add them to their products library / download list.
@Pushee-Ri > 'As far as I know, Excessive has never released updates for his freebies'
You're wrong: I reported various bugs in his freebies and he did fix some of them, deploying the fixes on every site hosting his freebies at the time, including Renderhub.
There is no need to find an excuse to Excessive or to diminish his agency: he clearly explained he's fine with the outcome of replacing files with empty ones.
Luxe Muse
Karma: 8,944
Mon, Jul 20@Pushe, no, no. You didn't step on my toes. Nor I took it the wrong way. I was more explaining my position
Pushee-Ri
Karma: 52,131
Mon, Jul 20@Luxe
Thanks a lot! Now I can finally take off this stupid sackcloth - it's scratching my skin... it's driving me crazy
Thanks a lot! Now I can finally take off this stupid sackcloth - it's scratching my skin... it's driving me crazy
I may well be considered a leecher, since I rarely if ever rate my purchases. There's a reason for that however. I buy... quite a lot of stuff, and also collect freebies, with the "intention" of using them at some point. But weeks, months, or years might pass before that occurs. I'm scarcely in a position to rate a product which I have no direct knowledge of other than that I've acquired it. Yet I could easily be disparaged as a "leecher".
I would also point out to the many who seem to have failed to register the initial point of the OP post, which was to encourage anyone who was interested to get any of their now (if not always, I don't remember - I'd gotten some previously as freebies but this post renewed my interest) available content until it became unavailable. Encouraged. Not "get it now so I can strip access from you ASAP on my way out the door". There are a few choice descriptives for such behavior, rude being the most polite. That the content "might" be available elsewhere under some other name that people might, or might not be aware of seems a bit disingenuous as an argument, does it not?
As is, the artist certainly has the right to leave the storefront, but behaving as if the store - despite its current behavior - doesn't have its own processes to retain content, even content ostensibly removed from the store for whatever reason, even their own decisions as has certainly been demonstrated is perhaps beyond my ability to explain to people who seem to have a reasonable grasp of language.
I contend that many of you are arguing from false premises. Standing upon shaky ground. I'm not certain how Renderosity handles such things, but their retail products certainly are still available to download if not available to sell. For freebies I can't really say, their system isn't as robust as here on RH, which is another point to consider - it's all a single download library here.
I would also point out to the many who seem to have failed to register the initial point of the OP post, which was to encourage anyone who was interested to get any of their now (if not always, I don't remember - I'd gotten some previously as freebies but this post renewed my interest) available content until it became unavailable. Encouraged. Not "get it now so I can strip access from you ASAP on my way out the door". There are a few choice descriptives for such behavior, rude being the most polite. That the content "might" be available elsewhere under some other name that people might, or might not be aware of seems a bit disingenuous as an argument, does it not?
As is, the artist certainly has the right to leave the storefront, but behaving as if the store - despite its current behavior - doesn't have its own processes to retain content, even content ostensibly removed from the store for whatever reason, even their own decisions as has certainly been demonstrated is perhaps beyond my ability to explain to people who seem to have a reasonable grasp of language.
I contend that many of you are arguing from false premises. Standing upon shaky ground. I'm not certain how Renderosity handles such things, but their retail products certainly are still available to download if not available to sell. For freebies I can't really say, their system isn't as robust as here on RH, which is another point to consider - it's all a single download library here.
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Elor
Karma: 118
Mon, Jul 20'I'm not certain how Renderosity handles such things'
It's not possible to add freebies from the freebies section of Renderosity on our account and I don't think Renderosity keeps track of which account downloaded one freebie, so once an artist has removed that freebie from Renderosity, it's gone and my guess is there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Renderosity will likely have the freebie in their backup for some time, but I doubt they have set their backup rules to keep freebies for long after they are removed from the free stuff section.
It's not possible to add freebies from the freebies section of Renderosity on our account and I don't think Renderosity keeps track of which account downloaded one freebie, so once an artist has removed that freebie from Renderosity, it's gone and my guess is there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Renderosity will likely have the freebie in their backup for some time, but I doubt they have set their backup rules to keep freebies for long after they are removed from the free stuff section.
Hello everyone.
I would prefer it if we could move the debate about two-class customers to the General Forum. Basically, this has not so much to do with Excessive understandable anger. It is also less likely to get lost over there and interests more people than those who read product presentaions.
Some things I want to say - althogh it's a bit off-topic but others here have also shared their opinion on it:
Nice that so many people **know** that RH 'had to *react proactively*' (which in other cases would be called an oxymoron). I don't have that knowledge. I am also absolutely ignorant of the causes of this have-to-(re)act situation in which RH was stuck.
Be sure: If someone dared me at gunpoint to destroy my friend's car, my friend would not only know the time of the crime, but also the type of weapon, the attacker's clothing, his eyecolour, his social security number, the name of attacker's wife and the license plate of his car (<---- illustrative hyperbole!!! NO call for action!).
I wouldn't say: Sorry, there was no other way. But thank you for all the rides you made for me. And didn't you want to walk more anyway? The way is open for a better, greater, healthier future.
But: RH and I are not friends. Not even close. You/ they offer a service, I offer a service, and that's how we came together.
I would prefer it if we could move the debate about two-class customers to the General Forum. Basically, this has not so much to do with Excessive understandable anger. It is also less likely to get lost over there and interests more people than those who read product presentaions.
Some things I want to say - althogh it's a bit off-topic but others here have also shared their opinion on it:
Nice that so many people **know** that RH 'had to *react proactively*' (which in other cases would be called an oxymoron). I don't have that knowledge. I am also absolutely ignorant of the causes of this have-to-(re)act situation in which RH was stuck.
Be sure: If someone dared me at gunpoint to destroy my friend's car, my friend would not only know the time of the crime, but also the type of weapon, the attacker's clothing, his eyecolour, his social security number, the name of attacker's wife and the license plate of his car (<---- illustrative hyperbole!!! NO call for action!).
I wouldn't say: Sorry, there was no other way. But thank you for all the rides you made for me. And didn't you want to walk more anyway? The way is open for a better, greater, healthier future.
But: RH and I are not friends. Not even close. You/ they offer a service, I offer a service, and that's how we came together.
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