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GLBWhich payment companies are demanding you censor?
471
I understand RenderHub and others have been put in an untenable position due to payment companies demanding censorship or threatening to not process purchases from your website. It isn't just RenderHub - it's all over the America. The land of the free and censorship.
All I'd like to know, if possible, which credit card companies and/or banking entities have made these demands? It is obvious where it came from, and to stay in business you actually have to collect money. I am not a creator of models, rather I'm a hobbyist, so my livelihood does not depend on these Puritanical censors. So I would like to know who is responsible so that I can boycott them in the future (i.e. moving over to companies that do not support censorship). Simple as that.
But just as you've been put in a difficult position, so have I. I now have to choose whether or not I directly support censorship by buying products featured here. So please help me understand.
Thank you,
Hexdrake
All I'd like to know, if possible, which credit card companies and/or banking entities have made these demands? It is obvious where it came from, and to stay in business you actually have to collect money. I am not a creator of models, rather I'm a hobbyist, so my livelihood does not depend on these Puritanical censors. So I would like to know who is responsible so that I can boycott them in the future (i.e. moving over to companies that do not support censorship). Simple as that.
But just as you've been put in a difficult position, so have I. I now have to choose whether or not I directly support censorship by buying products featured here. So please help me understand.
Thank you,
Hexdrake
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Same, Freedom is being stripped by big companies, this is Not right, we should know who these companies are so we can take our business elsewhere.
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It's far less about censorship and more about online purchases themselves, but the two get conflated far more then they should by people not inside the retail industry.
When it comes to selling things online, history dictates that certain types of things carry a higher chance of chargebacks and fraud reports. NSFW content is just one of MANY MANY unrelated types of things that fall under this umbrella.
If you sell NSFW content OR any other types of things that historically carry high fraud and chargeback then you must process using an HRP (High Risk Processing) these are normally banks not the actual credit card companies, they work with the card companies and insure all the transactions so to speak, the only real difference between standard processing and an HRP is you pay a higher % per transaction with an HRP you're not dealing with the card companies directly and there's normally a monthly fee (varies depending on the HRP)
Now what else is considered HRP outside of NSFW content? (I've posted this so many times the past 30-40 days I really should just copy/paste it into a text file lol)
CBD and Cannabis products, Tobacco and vape products, firearms and ammo, Nutraceuticals and Supplements, Gambling and Betting, Dating sites/services, Travel Agencies and Airlines purchases, Event Ticketing (concert tickets, festivals etc) Credit Repair and Debt collection, Crypto, SOME Subscription services, dropshipping and the list literally goes on and on and on.
This is not about censorship, this about being part of a category that sees a lot of chargebacks and fraud.
As for the censorship itself, even HRP's have rules of what you can and can not sell, and honestly while I totally agree with freedom of speech and expression, I can 100% agree that no one should be profiting off of CSAM (kid stuff) Revenge porn, torture porn and non-con, ALL of that is illegal and should be illegal.
What most people keep conflating is that these types of issues are tied back to watchdog groups like "Collective Shout" which is the farthest from the truth, you can google them and see that they have only gone after the biggest of the big companies / websites, and every one of their campaigns tie back to "fees" the platform would have to pay (But they have no legal way to enforce the fees so they stay the internet boogeyman and get blamed for things that don't even know exist.
Last but not least, platforms that used to allow NSFW and who THRIVED with NSFW content like Tumblr for example, the only reason they pulled NSFW content was not watchdog groups, not the Gov and not censorship, it was APPLE who said "remove that content or loose the app store" Apple has a pretty strict "NO NSFW" clause for developers, and Apple loves to throw their weight around and enforce that clause (Why Twitter has never been slapped I'll never know lol)
When it comes to selling things online, history dictates that certain types of things carry a higher chance of chargebacks and fraud reports. NSFW content is just one of MANY MANY unrelated types of things that fall under this umbrella.
If you sell NSFW content OR any other types of things that historically carry high fraud and chargeback then you must process using an HRP (High Risk Processing) these are normally banks not the actual credit card companies, they work with the card companies and insure all the transactions so to speak, the only real difference between standard processing and an HRP is you pay a higher % per transaction with an HRP you're not dealing with the card companies directly and there's normally a monthly fee (varies depending on the HRP)
Now what else is considered HRP outside of NSFW content? (I've posted this so many times the past 30-40 days I really should just copy/paste it into a text file lol)
CBD and Cannabis products, Tobacco and vape products, firearms and ammo, Nutraceuticals and Supplements, Gambling and Betting, Dating sites/services, Travel Agencies and Airlines purchases, Event Ticketing (concert tickets, festivals etc) Credit Repair and Debt collection, Crypto, SOME Subscription services, dropshipping and the list literally goes on and on and on.
This is not about censorship, this about being part of a category that sees a lot of chargebacks and fraud.
As for the censorship itself, even HRP's have rules of what you can and can not sell, and honestly while I totally agree with freedom of speech and expression, I can 100% agree that no one should be profiting off of CSAM (kid stuff) Revenge porn, torture porn and non-con, ALL of that is illegal and should be illegal.
What most people keep conflating is that these types of issues are tied back to watchdog groups like "Collective Shout" which is the farthest from the truth, you can google them and see that they have only gone after the biggest of the big companies / websites, and every one of their campaigns tie back to "fees" the platform would have to pay (But they have no legal way to enforce the fees so they stay the internet boogeyman and get blamed for things that don't even know exist.
Last but not least, platforms that used to allow NSFW and who THRIVED with NSFW content like Tumblr for example, the only reason they pulled NSFW content was not watchdog groups, not the Gov and not censorship, it was APPLE who said "remove that content or loose the app store" Apple has a pretty strict "NO NSFW" clause for developers, and Apple loves to throw their weight around and enforce that clause (Why Twitter has never been slapped I'll never know lol)
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Hexdrake
Karma: 1,778
Sat, Jul 25I see. That certainly explains the why. But censorship can occur indirectly as well as directly. If I raise the fees on all adult content to where people can't make money doing it, then you are effectively censoring it. So is it that RenderHub dropped all these products without notice because it was losing money on them? After all "the only real difference between standard processing and an HRP is you pay a higher % per transaction with an HRP". I am really, really sorry that the banking industry is so overburdened with fraud they are losing billions of dollars yet somehow show record profits every quarter. I am sorry for whatever legal structure makes RenderHub answerable for this fraud. But what I am really sorry for is the bottom rung of professional society when it comes to pay for work, at least in the USA. We have no unions or associations to protect us -- not like doctors, plumbers, or any number of association. And so we have events occur like this, which to me is unconscionable.
Now I'd like to hear the explanation as to the how. As I understand it, a number of creators woke up one day to find their stuff (their livelihoods) gone with no explanation. I know of at least one other website that not only knew beforehand, but came up with a viable alternative rather than just abandoning the adult industry completely, so it wasn't like RenderHub had no knowledge that this was coming.
I would further say that the adult stuff was part of what set RenderHub apart from its competition and was a part of its success. Now, when things become difficult, the "offending" items are dropped with no lead time or explanation? The community helped make RenderHub a success dropped with no lead time when things became inconvenient. I do not equate that to being "artist friendly".
I am sorry, but any way you slice it this was handled poorly. I would never trust RenderHub with content I sell on their site. They have already proven they can and will take that content off without notice. If I have the facts wrong on this, I encourage others to educate me, but to my knowledge at this point there has not been an official RenderHub response to my query. I asked RenderHub a question as to who is responsible for the sudden action, and their response has been to ignore my question. Nice.
This event makes it as plain as day the support the artists are getting from RenderHub, which is to say "too bad, so sad, and see you around" when things become inconvenient.
Now I'd like to hear the explanation as to the how. As I understand it, a number of creators woke up one day to find their stuff (their livelihoods) gone with no explanation. I know of at least one other website that not only knew beforehand, but came up with a viable alternative rather than just abandoning the adult industry completely, so it wasn't like RenderHub had no knowledge that this was coming.
I would further say that the adult stuff was part of what set RenderHub apart from its competition and was a part of its success. Now, when things become difficult, the "offending" items are dropped with no lead time or explanation? The community helped make RenderHub a success dropped with no lead time when things became inconvenient. I do not equate that to being "artist friendly".
I am sorry, but any way you slice it this was handled poorly. I would never trust RenderHub with content I sell on their site. They have already proven they can and will take that content off without notice. If I have the facts wrong on this, I encourage others to educate me, but to my knowledge at this point there has not been an official RenderHub response to my query. I asked RenderHub a question as to who is responsible for the sudden action, and their response has been to ignore my question. Nice.
This event makes it as plain as day the support the artists are getting from RenderHub, which is to say "too bad, so sad, and see you around" when things become inconvenient.
LchBch
Karma: 7,108
Sat, Jul 25I would also like to add further clarity about the "other site" who knew beforehand and created an alternative storefront to keep their vendors safe. In that particular case, it was not the usual PayPros (mastercard, visa, etc) that caused the change - It was a large storefront that I won't name publicly.
Upon submission for their pay addon for the site, their staff flagged it for adult content and threatened to report it. Whether that was an empty threat or not, site staff took the initiative to be safe and create an alternative while helping vendors make promo adjustments or move their products to a new site when simply changing a promo would not suffice. While that new site is not a functional storefront as of yet (it is still undergoing reviews for HRPs), it was handled quickly and cleanly on setup to make all of this a less painful transition - Which I am saying purely as a vendor and nothing else.
I do not think, from what I have seen said in other forum topics by staff, that RenderHub's decision to remove the content was due to PayPro or similar pressure. However, I do find it very difficult to believe there was no time to warn vendors of the impending change even if it were only a 24 hour window.
Upon submission for their pay addon for the site, their staff flagged it for adult content and threatened to report it. Whether that was an empty threat or not, site staff took the initiative to be safe and create an alternative while helping vendors make promo adjustments or move their products to a new site when simply changing a promo would not suffice. While that new site is not a functional storefront as of yet (it is still undergoing reviews for HRPs), it was handled quickly and cleanly on setup to make all of this a less painful transition - Which I am saying purely as a vendor and nothing else.
I do not think, from what I have seen said in other forum topics by staff, that RenderHub's decision to remove the content was due to PayPro or similar pressure. However, I do find it very difficult to believe there was no time to warn vendors of the impending change even if it were only a 24 hour window.
3DLoki
Karma: 3,447
Sat, Jul 25@Hexdrake
High risk payment processors (HRP) typically charge per transaction rates ranging from 3.5% to 10% along with monthly fees based on sales volumes, while the "normal" credit card processing fee typically ranges from 1.5% to 3.5%
HRP fees are not something that is going to effect a marketplaces profits to the point of removing the product line.
@LchBch
I sat there reading and re-reading and just scratching my head thinking you were talking about us, over at Rotica until it finally hit me (while typing this lol) that you were talking about Sade's stores lol I was very confused lol, part of that applied to us, the rest was like.... what's this person been smoking lol
High risk payment processors (HRP) typically charge per transaction rates ranging from 3.5% to 10% along with monthly fees based on sales volumes, while the "normal" credit card processing fee typically ranges from 1.5% to 3.5%
HRP fees are not something that is going to effect a marketplaces profits to the point of removing the product line.
@LchBch
I sat there reading and re-reading and just scratching my head thinking you were talking about us, over at Rotica until it finally hit me (while typing this lol) that you were talking about Sade's stores lol I was very confused lol, part of that applied to us, the rest was like.... what's this person been smoking lol
@3DLoki
What I call it censorship, others may call it a reduction in HRP risk. You can try to explain actions after you have done them in any way you choose. In most circumstances, people have reasons for what they do. Whether we think the reasons bizarre or justified, the truth is we can only gauge by actions. Whatever the reasons RenderHub did what they did, their actions were inexcusable, and I will not sit by and say nothing when I see people (some of whom I know and consider acquaintances) have their livelihoods threatened in such a way, not to mention that they are human beings who have to eat and feed their families. So call it censorship, call it a business decision, call it whatever. The decision I saw implemented, and how I saw it implemented, was disgusting to me, especially when that segment of RenderHub have made significant contributions to RenderHub's success.
I know it sounds hokey, but as part of the community, I feel that I owe it to other community members to speak out when they are wronged. If artists do not protect their own, than who will?
To my knowledge there has been no official announcement as to why the decision was made, which leads me to believe it was for done for a reason that most people would consider wrong. When a company does something for the right reasons, they left you know; otherwise they are silent. If I am spending money on a site primarily due to the fact that I believe they are "artist-friendly" and see them treat their vendors in such a dismissive manner, then I might as well feed the Daz machine and save money at the same time.
I have said my piece on this and see no further need to comment unless RenderHub does make an announcement or provide a reason. I would like nothing more than to "eat my own words"; and if it turns out that they had good reason, I will be more than happy to. But I have a feeling they will not and instead wait for this to blow-over and be forgotten, the heinous action forgotten to but a few -- some of whom may not make their rent or will go hungry. Oh well, they are just people /s.
What I call it censorship, others may call it a reduction in HRP risk. You can try to explain actions after you have done them in any way you choose. In most circumstances, people have reasons for what they do. Whether we think the reasons bizarre or justified, the truth is we can only gauge by actions. Whatever the reasons RenderHub did what they did, their actions were inexcusable, and I will not sit by and say nothing when I see people (some of whom I know and consider acquaintances) have their livelihoods threatened in such a way, not to mention that they are human beings who have to eat and feed their families. So call it censorship, call it a business decision, call it whatever. The decision I saw implemented, and how I saw it implemented, was disgusting to me, especially when that segment of RenderHub have made significant contributions to RenderHub's success.
I know it sounds hokey, but as part of the community, I feel that I owe it to other community members to speak out when they are wronged. If artists do not protect their own, than who will?
To my knowledge there has been no official announcement as to why the decision was made, which leads me to believe it was for done for a reason that most people would consider wrong. When a company does something for the right reasons, they left you know; otherwise they are silent. If I am spending money on a site primarily due to the fact that I believe they are "artist-friendly" and see them treat their vendors in such a dismissive manner, then I might as well feed the Daz machine and save money at the same time.
I have said my piece on this and see no further need to comment unless RenderHub does make an announcement or provide a reason. I would like nothing more than to "eat my own words"; and if it turns out that they had good reason, I will be more than happy to. But I have a feeling they will not and instead wait for this to blow-over and be forgotten, the heinous action forgotten to but a few -- some of whom may not make their rent or will go hungry. Oh well, they are just people /s.
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